Tanking in FF14 question

[Nedkel]

I recommend not even trying to use a parse or you will develop a "tank depression" and you will have no energy left to play a tank, once you discover you are are doing twice less damage as dps jobs. :P

Well tanking in FFXIV on low lvls is a pain, low level in general are pain to go through.

[SamRF]

I recommend not even trying to use a parse or you will develop a "tank depression" and you will have no energy left to play a tank, once you discover you are are doing twice less damage as dps jobs. :P

Well tanking in FFXIV on low lvls is a pain, low level in general are pain to go through.

Tanks seem to do much more dps when leveling though, balance is all over the place before lvl 80. I think there's a level range in which PLD will outdps all others most of the time, Stormblood leveling dungeons comes to mind.

[Maeka]

So.... I'm going to have to say a few unpopular things.

I used to play back during WoW during the "Three Sunders" rule. I didn't play a lot, but I did do some tanking, enough to easily get an idea of what it was like. I did tanking during ARR, near the middle until I got tired of people expecting me to know my way around dungeons with optional ways to go and optional mobs, and expecting me to know which I should pull and which I should skip even if it were the first time I was there. I tanked on-and-off through Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, just a smidge in Cata, a bunch in MoP and a little in WoD, and once-or-twice in Legion and BfA.

I tanked in FFXI.

So I feel I've a decent amount of experience of tanking across three different games, and well..........

All of this "Enmity Management" you guys are harping on about? Can you guys please take off the rose-colored goggles for a second? Enmity Management was never really a thing for tanks. You simply spammed the skills that had the highest enmity gain, and usually, especially for early WoW tanking, these skills did jack all for damage. I twas all about "What skills do the most enmity so I can keep the enemy on me"? You want to harp on about low DPS? That's laughable, because tanks did far less DPS back in those days.

"Enmity Management" was always about DPS not overshooting their tanks, and it was a crutch to slow DPS down and to make them wait before actually using their highest DPS skills, and it was also a crutch to limit healing. None of these had any impact on what the tank was doing, because the tank, yet again, was simply spamming the highest-enmity routines they could do along with whatever defensive cooldowns they had.

Also, "Stance Swapping" is something else I'm getting tired of hearing about, when tanks wanted to run with DPS stance because somehow they weren't doing enough freaking DPS that without a button that says "I DO MOAR DPS NOW!" they feel like they are doing less DPS (even though they aren't). Same with healers complaining about the loss of Cleric Stance; that DPS was baked into them without CS but yet healers still think that without a toggle "MOAR DPS" button they feel like they aren't doing DPS.

Back to the OP's actual question.....

PLD is the funnest tank to actually play because you have the most mitigation buttons out of any job:

Sheltron: You are popping this anytime you are anticipating big incoming damage.
Cover: I've saved peoples' lives from this. Someone with 3+ stacks of Vuln about to take a huge AoE hit? Yeah, I've done that. It feels awesome.
Passage of Arms: Boss is about to do a huge AoE and I pop this and we barely survive because people messed up the "boss buildup" mechanic? That's usually worth at least 3-4 comms at the end of the fight.
Clemency: I love popping this on the healer to save us from a wipe and/or the healer goes down with 20-30% left and I manage to keep myself and a DPS alive until we finish off the boss.
Shield Slam: For trash mobs with annoying attacks when your group doesn't have WHM (or low level when WHM doesn't have Holy yet) and/or the few early bosses that aren't immune to stun.

And of course you have your standard Rampart and your 30% less damage button like any other tank does, as well as Interject and Provoke, and Reprisal (which makes enemies do less damage).

I find myself, when I'm running lower level content going "blah... no Clemency?" or "Meh, wish I had Passage of Arms there.."

As to your rotation?

Later levels, you have 2 Rotations, or well.... the first 2 buttons are the same and you end with either DPS or DoT. Late Level, you get Sword Oath, finishing the DPS rotation gives you 3 charges of an even more powerful skill which is great for building a bunch of MP back fast. Your AoE later on is a 2 button rotation, and you have an oGCD AoE as well, as well as an oGCD single-target attack. Sheltron gets thrown in either to soften the tankbusters, or to help deal with a lot of incoming damage (like when you're pulling large groups of trash). You also get a "Dump MP to do crazy AoE Damage" rotation that involves popping an oGCD+4 casted spells+finisher.

Tanking in FFXIV is about knowing when to use your mitigation buttons as far as trash packs go. Spacing out your various buttons, and planning ahead, as well as dodging all of the AoEs (which get more common, esp in Lv80 dungeons). Nothing like pulling 7-10 mobs and each of them are throwing AoEs down on the ground every few seconds and you have to keep dancing and weaving around them while doing your rotation while keeping track of your mitigation buttons so the healer doesn't run out of skills to keep you alive. An awesome tank vs a reasonable tank vs a crappy tank, the difference is night and day when they try to pull 2+ groups. The tank that stacks all of his mitigation together with a macro vs the tank that knows which should be paired with which.

For boss fights, it's far more mechanic-heavy, knowing what bosses do and how to deal with it, knowing what the tankbuster attack is called so when you see it come up, you react to it before you get 70% of your life sheared off in an instant because you didn't have any mitigation up at the time, knowing where to position the boss, some bosses should be tanked at the edge because they have nasty AoEs you don't want getting dumped on the rest of the group.

The 8-man fights, sometimes the two tanks need to be working together, and be in agreement as to who does what (Thornmarch, Leviathan, Susano's sword phase, Titania to name a few). Also need to be paying attention, if the main tank dies, you need to be ready to step up to the plate quick and need to know the fight yourself so you don't get killed too while they get the other tank back up, etc.

WoW places a lot of emphasis in pushing the buttons in an optimal order, FFXIV places that emphasis elsewhere.

[MerlinCross]

So.... I'm going to have to say a few unpopular things.

I had a big post ready to go, but I don't want to really take OP's topic and turn it into another battle ground about Tanks.

I just ask, when was the last time you leveled a Job and when did it become fun?

Cause each expansion they seem to be pushing that "You get to have fun now" further back by pushing the more useful skills/complete experience back further and further.

I can argue a LOT about some things and be argued back in turn but I think most people here can agree on something. Low level in FF14 is a pain/annoying.

It's just to bad they keep raising the cap on what seems to be "Low Level". Is that a scheme to sell jump potions?

[Mithia]

I can argue against that by saying that they make you start with your core abilities and only later will you get the abilities that aren't as important but good usage of them will definitely make you stand out.

[Maeka]

I had a big post ready to go, but I don't want to really take OP's topic and turn it into another battle ground about Tanks.

I just ask, when was the last time you leveled a Job and when did it become fun?

Cause each expansion they seem to be pushing that "You get to have fun now" further back by pushing the more useful skills/complete experience back further and further.

I can argue a LOT about some things and be argued back in turn but I think most people here can agree on something. Low level in FF14 is a pain/annoying.

It's just to bad they keep raising the cap on what seems to be "Low Level". Is that a scheme to sell jump potions?

I have all jobs on Level 80, and from doing so many leveling roulettes getting anything between Sastasha and Gulg, I'd have to say that I've a decent idea of what several jobs are like during the various levels now.

In fact, just today, I got the final weapon (BLM's) from the Resistance. You can check me on Lodestone if you don't believe me (Maeka Blazewing @ Cactaur).

I would have to say that I had reasonable fun leveling them all (except for BLM in SB+. I hate Enochian. I really really do).

Early level dungeons can feel like a bit of a slog now and then, I get that. For some reason, SE thinks that players' minds will implode if they have more than 3 buttons to push. However, I DID notice that they do give you some buttons early. Such as Spirits Within being a Lv30-ish skill now, for example. That used to be Lv45+ IIRC.

I also remember when Paladins had no AoE beyond Circle of Scorn when you had to tab-target mobs constantly to dump savage blades (remember that pointless skill?) and rage of halones trying to keep junk on you.

Or how about Flash? Did anybody ever care about the Blindness effect? Heck a lot of newbie Paladins never used Flash and couldn't figure out why the mobs were always chewing on the healers because quite frankly, the skill seemed like a waste of time to somebody who didn't know any better.

So it isn't Quite as bad as it used to be in expansions past, as far as skills at lower levels. And I'm certainly liking the faster dungeon clears due to more jobs having more AoEs. Now if only we could fix MNK and DRG having to wait so long to get theirs.

[MerlinCross]

I have all jobs on Level 80, and from doing so many leveling roulettes getting anything between Sastasha and Gulg, I'd have to say that I've a decent idea of what several jobs are like during the various levels now.

In fact, just today, I got the final weapon (BLM's) from the Resistance. You can check me on Lodestone if you don't believe me (Maeka Blazewing @ Cactaur).

I would have to say that I had reasonable fun leveling them all (except for BLM in SB+. I hate Enochian. I really really do).

Early level dungeons can feel like a bit of a slog now and then, I get that. For some reason, SE thinks that players' minds will implode if they have more than 3 buttons to push. However, I DID notice that they do give you some buttons early. Such as Spirits Within being a Lv30-ish skill now, for example. That used to be Lv45+ IIRC.

I also remember when Paladins had no AoE beyond Circle of Scorn when you had to tab-target mobs constantly to dump savage blades (remember that pointless skill?) and rage of halones trying to keep junk on you.

Or how about Flash? Did anybody ever care about the Blindness effect? Heck a lot of newbie Paladins never used Flash and couldn't figure out why the mobs were always chewing on the healers because quite frankly, the skill seemed like a waste of time to somebody who didn't know any better.

So it isn't Quite as bad as it used to be in expansions past, as far as skills at lower levels. And I'm certainly liking the faster dungeon clears due to more jobs having more AoEs. Now if only we could fix MNK and DRG having to wait so long to get theirs.

I didn't ask did you have fun leveling them all, I asked when did the fun kick in? When did it start clicking, when did it feel you started to get a good handle on the class, when did the game start allowing you to have fun? Cause as an example, Ninja has always kinda suffered from highs and lows to me based on some of the unlocks; some were useful others dead weight such as Smoke Screen(YES, I know Smoke Screen was very VERY good for Raids but on leveling content that was basically a dead unlock). You brought up DRG and MNK, are they not as a fun because they don't get their AoE's earlier?

Also, no I don't recall those days. I do recall the days of 2 unleash and then just using scorne on everything as DRK. Now I just stand in place as WAR and hit my two buttons if the game decides I'm at a level to get those. Exciting game play.

Look I'm not saying what we had before was better but I question the idea of "Fixing AoE" with just one more attack that I keep seeing going around. And if Speed is the reason, maybe just cut down on the amount of trash or HP of them. Most trash is trash; just there to slow you down or be a speedbump of uninteresting. Lowering the amount lets us get to the more interesting fights(Though Item Level these days makes some fights over before they get started).

And the Flash thing could have been explained but I do feel like I'm missing a CD or two when doing low level PLD stuff, almost like that was designed on the idea you might have a blind. Does Flash being gone make it impossible? No Item Level makes everything better and they more than likely did take that into account, but when I was leveling it up, I kept feeling like I didn't have enough CDs for the content I was doing. I can only spam Shelltron so much.

That's not a good feeling to have as a Tank.

But getting back to OP, no, trash is boring it mainly worthless regardless of how late into the game you get. At the start of the expansion, yeah okay that always messes people up but I think most people have a handle of it so you should be fine unless you or the rest of the party mess up royally. The bosses are better and there are some enemies/dungeons that need more attention but there's a reason most Tanks are rumored to have Netflix/Youtube in the background.

Get to Trials/Raids/EX/Savage and then it becomes more interesting but no, trash rarely gets exciting.

[NanaWiloh]

So.... I'm going to have to say a few unpopular things.

I used to play back during WoW during the "Three Sunders" rule. I didn't play a lot, but I did do some tanking, enough to easily get an idea of what it was like. I did tanking during ARR, near the middle until I got tired of people expecting me to know my way around dungeons with optional ways to go and optional mobs, and expecting me to know which I should pull and which I should skip even if it were the first time I was there. I tanked on-and-off through Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, just a smidge in Cata, a bunch in MoP and a little in WoD, and once-or-twice in Legion and BfA.

I tanked in FFXI.

So I feel I've a decent amount of experience of tanking across three different games, and well..........

All of this "Enmity Management" you guys are harping on about? Can you guys please take off the rose-colored goggles for a second? Enmity Management was never really a thing for tanks. You simply spammed the skills that had the highest enmity gain, and usually, especially for early WoW tanking, these skills did jack all for damage. I twas all about "What skills do the most enmity so I can keep the enemy on me"? You want to harp on about low DPS? That's laughable, because tanks did far less DPS back in those days.

"Enmity Management" was always about DPS not overshooting their tanks, and it was a crutch to slow DPS down and to make them wait before actually using their highest DPS skills, and it was also a crutch to limit healing. None of these had any impact on what the tank was doing, because the tank, yet again, was simply spamming the highest-enmity routines they could do along with whatever defensive cooldowns they had.

Also, "Stance Swapping" is something else I'm getting tired of hearing about, when tanks wanted to run with DPS stance because somehow they weren't doing enough freaking DPS that without a button that says "I DO MOAR DPS NOW!" they feel like they are doing less DPS (even though they aren't). Same with healers complaining about the loss of Cleric Stance; that DPS was baked into them without CS but yet healers still think that without a toggle "MOAR DPS" button they feel like they aren't doing DPS.

Back to the OP's actual question.....

PLD is the funnest tank to actually play because you have the most mitigation buttons out of any job:

Sheltron: You are popping this anytime you are anticipating big incoming damage.
Cover: I've saved peoples' lives from this. Someone with 3+ stacks of Vuln about to take a huge AoE hit? Yeah, I've done that. It feels awesome.
Passage of Arms: Boss is about to do a huge AoE and I pop this and we barely survive because people messed up the "boss buildup" mechanic? That's usually worth at least 3-4 comms at the end of the fight.
Clemency: I love popping this on the healer to save us from a wipe and/or the healer goes down with 20-30% left and I manage to keep myself and a DPS alive until we finish off the boss.
Shield Slam: For trash mobs with annoying attacks when your group doesn't have WHM (or low level when WHM doesn't have Holy yet) and/or the few early bosses that aren't immune to stun.

And of course you have your standard Rampart and your 30% less damage button like any other tank does, as well as Interject and Provoke, and Reprisal (which makes enemies do less damage).

I find myself, when I'm running lower level content going "blah... no Clemency?" or "Meh, wish I had Passage of Arms there.."

As to your rotation?

Later levels, you have 2 Rotations, or well.... the first 2 buttons are the same and you end with either DPS or DoT. Late Level, you get Sword Oath, finishing the DPS rotation gives you 3 charges of an even more powerful skill which is great for building a bunch of MP back fast. Your AoE later on is a 2 button rotation, and you have an oGCD AoE as well, as well as an oGCD single-target attack. Sheltron gets thrown in either to soften the tankbusters, or to help deal with a lot of incoming damage (like when you're pulling large groups of trash). You also get a "Dump MP to do crazy AoE Damage" rotation that involves popping an oGCD+4 casted spells+finisher.

Tanking in FFXIV is about knowing when to use your mitigation buttons as far as trash packs go. Spacing out your various buttons, and planning ahead, as well as dodging all of the AoEs (which get more common, esp in Lv80 dungeons). Nothing like pulling 7-10 mobs and each of them are throwing AoEs down on the ground every few seconds and you have to keep dancing and weaving around them while doing your rotation while keeping track of your mitigation buttons so the healer doesn't run out of skills to keep you alive. An awesome tank vs a reasonable tank vs a crappy tank, the difference is night and day when they try to pull 2+ groups. The tank that stacks all of his mitigation together with a macro vs the tank that knows which should be paired with which.

For boss fights, it's far more mechanic-heavy, knowing what bosses do and how to deal with it, knowing what the tankbuster attack is called so when you see it come up, you react to it before you get 70% of your life sheared off in an instant because you didn't have any mitigation up at the time, knowing where to position the boss, some bosses should be tanked at the edge because they have nasty AoEs you don't want getting dumped on the rest of the group.

The 8-man fights, sometimes the two tanks need to be working together, and be in agreement as to who does what (Thornmarch, Leviathan, Susano's sword phase, Titania to name a few). Also need to be paying attention, if the main tank dies, you need to be ready to step up to the plate quick and need to know the fight yourself so you don't get killed too while they get the other tank back up, etc.

WoW places a lot of emphasis in pushing the buttons in an optimal order, FFXIV places that emphasis elsewhere.

You hit the Enmity management and Stance swapping especially right on the head. Just spent like the last hour looking through threads on tanking and see nothing but tanks. Wanting the old days of go Offensive stance, then expect healers and dps too use ENMITY REDUCING ABILITES whenever their up. So Mr or Mrs. tank could continue to spam their dps abilites and avoid their Defensive stance. Grit,sword oath, Defiance no longer grant damage reduction only enmity generation. So they could just leave it down and lower their enmity generation just like if they were in Offensive stance. As healer I should not have to lax at my job because my tank wants to play dps instead of Tank.

[ReiMakoto]

You hit the Enmity management and Stance swapping especially right on the head. Just spent like the last hour looking through threads on tanking and see nothing but tanks. Wanting the old days of go Offensive stance, then expect healers and dps too use ENMITY REDUCING ABILITES whenever their up. So Mr or Mrs. tank could continue to spam their dps abilites and avoid their Defensive stance. Grit,sword oath, Defiance no longer grant damage reduction only enmity generation. So they could just leave it down and lower their enmity generation just like if they were in Offensive stance. As healer I should not have to lax at my job because my tank wants to play dps instead of Tank.

This is such a bad take for so many reasons. First of all dps and healer aggro management was almost completely free, it didnt break your rotation and requires you to press a button every few mins, so it was not like it was hard to do. Second, the damage difference between a tank in dps stance and tank stance was huge, like really huge, and the defence gained simply wasnt worth it. You barely had to heal the tank more (regen still covered autos and you would have to heal after a buster regardless) and tank stance actually made your defensive cooldowns worse due diminishing returns on stacking defence buffs. And finally, more damage meant for a safer run, the damage difference between a tank in tank stance and one in dps stance was so huge it would make meaninful impact on kill time, meaning you had to deal with more mechanics. More mechanics means more damage and more things that can go wrong, so the best defence is a good offence

[BarretOblivion]

You hit the Enmity management and Stance swapping especially right on the head. Just spent like the last hour looking through threads on tanking and see nothing but tanks. Wanting the old days of go Offensive stance, then expect healers and dps too use ENMITY REDUCING ABILITES whenever their up. So Mr or Mrs. tank could continue to spam their dps abilites and avoid their Defensive stance. Grit,sword oath, Defiance no longer grant damage reduction only enmity generation. So they could just leave it down and lower their enmity generation just like if they were in Offensive stance. As healer I should not have to lax at my job because my tank wants to play dps instead of Tank.

Im sorry to say this but... you are just bad then. Everyone got used to doing it and timing thier hate drops when they are needed (example during burst heals or dps). You never laxed your job in SB, if you did, something was wrong. Either you didn't Lucid, or tanks weren't shirking each other.