Thread: 6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I actually want them to rework warrior to get away from the whole direct crit debacle, all it does is cause warrior to not benefit from a lot of party buffs (Battle Litany does absolutely nothing for us since it overlaps with IR, as does Battle Voice) and it makes our BiS rather awkward since warrior is the only tank that doesn't want any direct hit melds.



At this point I would honestly prefer it's original 4.0 design, except maybe keep the cost reduction of current IR and adjust potencies accordingly because setting up your burst before 4.2 was too much effort for too little gain. This would potentially even solve the issue of warrior hitting like a wet noodle outside of IR windows.

Nah, fuck that noise. The crit direct hit gimmick it has is one of the few unique things in terms of jobs having an identity remaining. Besides, beyond that it just means that WAR's damage is very consistent between pulls since Inner Release and Inner Chaos is a fairly big chunk of WAR's overall damage profile. Besides, people love to talk about how Litany and Voice don't benefit WAR, and I'm here to say: so what? Embolden doesn't benefit SMN, BLM, WHM, AST, SCH, or PLD's Req window if it's active during that. Brotherhood doesn't affect SMN, RDM's non-melee combo, BLM, WHM, SCH, AST, or PLD's Req window. No one is making a huge deal to change Brotherhood & Embolden to benefit all damage types rather than just physical. The same logic therefore applies to Litany & Voice. They benefit most jobs, and that's completely fine. I don't see any reason why there being a single job that a select few raid buffs don't work for is an issue only when we're talking about WAR, since it isn't an issue to anyone when talking about magic jobs. Or how no one really complains that DRG's Dragon Sight doesn't buff a SMN's pet damage which therefore makes them a horrible tether choice as that's a large portion of their burst. No, I definitely think WAR's current design with how Inner Release and Inner Chaos function is completely fine. All I think the job needs currently is some very minor potency buffs.

As for 6.0 changes, I quite like the idea that was posted above to give WAR a short duration, long recast buff that for a few seconds shortens their GCD and allows them to get an extra couple of Fell Cleave's under Inner Release. On, and on a side note. Since we're talking about raid buffs, MNK's Brotherhood is pretty much a WAR's best friend as it has the exact same recast timer as Inner Release and lines up almost perfectly with it. So if we're talking about a static and they're *that* worried about their WAR missing out on damage from Litany, they can consider swapping from DRG to MNK and it becomes a non-issue. Of course, I think the entire situation is a non-issue to begin with. But this is more just a counterpoint to all of that.

Originally Posted by Absurdity

I certainly don't want even more mindless spam in IR. Would it get the job done? Sure. Would it make warrior any more interesting? Certainly not. You would just be doing what you've been doing since 4.2.

Fell Cleave has, for the longest time (literally years at this point), been Warrior's 'thing'. You'll have to forgive me if I find it hard to believe that very many people play WAR who don't care for Fell Cleave, in the same vein that I doubt any SMN players dislike Akh Morn or Revelation. Sure, you don't spam Akh Morn or Revelation like you do Fell Cleave during Inner Release, but when you actually stop and think about it, IR is just a natural progression of Berserk. Prior to Inner Release the entire burst phase gimmick is, as I'm sure anyone who plays the job well knows, prepping 100 gauge and 1-2 Infuriate charges so that you can use Berserk and then pump out as much burst as possible within that short window with your heavy hitter. So in that sense Inner Release seems to me to be just a natural evolution of the skill. I can get that tank players in general are kinda over the whole 'spam 1 move 5 times during this buff' thing since three of the four tanks do it now, but I don't think that's a problem with WAR, I think that's a problem with DRK having been made too similar to WAR. PLD I can give a pass to that because SE did admittedly change it up a *bit* with ShB by adding a finisher to Requiescat. So rather than completely alter WAR from what it's been for literal years upon years at this point, I think it makes much more sense to give DRK a rework in 6.0 to make it feel like its own job again and not just an edgier, shadow-ier version of WAR. If they do that then I think there's really no justification left for people to complain about Inner Release and Fell Cleave since IR really just takes the one thing that WAR has always had as its main 'thing' and lets you have more of said thing.

I agree with the comments that say it's more about fight design than anything, and I also really liked the point about movement. I heavily disagree with the idea that tanks play more or less the same though. The only two I can say that about are DRK and WAR, but they still feel different enough to be distinct, and DRK is a lot more fun and engaging by virtue of having more buttons to press and looking more aesthetically pleasing.

Tanking just isn't exciting enough, nor is it rewarding enough, and there's very little you can do to optimize your own performance outside of fight-specific stuff. Once you press your buttons in an order vaguely resembling the correct one, pressing them in a more exact order doesn't make much of a difference. When I play DPS, optimizing my rotation actually feels like I'm doing something different. There's nothing like that with tanks. Optimizing Thunder usage on BLM feels a hell of a lot different than choosing which GCD to use Gnashing Fang on, or whether to open with Requiescat or FoF. This has been a problem with tanks for a while now, but doing it for 5+ years has gotten dull.

Also, enmity management was horrible. Enmity relying on having a NIN and/or DPS having the foresight to use diversion was absolute cancer and I'm having trouble believing that anyone who tanked in a large variety of content actually believes that changing it was a bad idea. There was nothing fun about stepping into party finder and suddenly having to do less DPS and having worse overall resource management because your party didn't play nice. Fuck that.

I can't comment on healers because I'm bad enough at healing that it's always at least kind of exciting lmao

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

I agree with the comments that say it's more about fight design than anything, and I also really liked the point about movement. I heavily disagree with the idea that tanks play more or less the same though. The only two I can say that about are DRK and WAR, but they still feel different enough to be distinct, and DRK is a lot more fun and engaging by virtue of having more buttons to press and looking more aesthetically pleasing.

Tanking just isn't exciting enough, nor is it rewarding enough, and there's very little you can do to optimize your own performance outside of fight-specific stuff. Once you press your buttons in an order vaguely resembling the correct one, pressing them in a more exact order doesn't make much of a difference. When I play DPS, optimizing my rotation actually feels like I'm doing something different. There's nothing like that with tanks. Optimizing Thunder usage on BLM feels a hell of a lot different than choosing which GCD to use Gnashing Fang on, or whether to open with Requiescat or FoF. This has been a problem with tanks for a while now, but doing it for 5+ years has gotten dull.

Also, enmity management was horrible. Enmity relying on having a NIN and/or DPS having the foresight to use diversion was absolute cancer and I'm having trouble believing that anyone who tanked in a large variety of content actually believes that changing it was a bad idea. There was nothing fun about stepping into party finder and suddenly having to do less DPS and having worse overall resource management because your party didn't play nice. Fuck that.

I can't comment on healers because I'm bad enough at healing that it's always at least kind of exciting lmao

The only thing I dislike about the ShB aggro changes is that I'm no longer able to pick a DPS at-will and decide that their life is forfeit with Shirk. Now it's either 'cleave the party and kill everyone' or nothing at all. Where are the good ole target-specific retribution to a DPS that's being an obnoxious twat in chat? Shirk killing has officially become a lost art.

Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

The only thing I dislike about the ShB aggro changes is that I'm no longer able to pick a DPS at-will and decide that their life is forfeit with Shirk. Now it's either 'cleave the party and kill everyone' or nothing at all. Where are the good ole target-specific retribution to a DPS that's being an obnoxious twat in chat? Shirk killing has officially become a lost art.

Shout-outs to the time I used shirk the exact second before a tank buster's cast bar came up while farming Thordan EX.

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Shout-outs to the time I used shirk the exact second before a tank buster's cast bar came up while farming Thordan EX.

That better have been followed up with a "Thanks for being my cooldown." in chat.

Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

That better have been followed up with a "Thanks for being my cooldown." in chat.

No it actually caused us to wipe. I just felt like being petty LMAO

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

No it actually caused us to wipe. I just felt like being petty LMAO

That was fun to read. If only we could punish those arrogant dps that do that nowadays :/

Sometimes I step in as a back-up tank for E6S. I don't know about other War's but I personally find fitting in IR windows a pain there. I remembered I had DRK leveled too, had a look over it as a potential replacement and realized I have the exact same "IR window" on the exact same CD. Bit depressing really.