A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

It’s why it’s a bad idea. No one wants their favourite to be given the short straw of paint dryer simulator. No one wants to go from having room to grow to tripping over the skill ceiling.

No one wants their favorite to be given the short straw of galaxy brain rotations and being a DPS Caster instead of a Healer. No one wants to go from having a straightforward and understandable Job they enjoy to tripping over convoluted mechanics while juggling a complex DPS rotation.

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Everyone can talk in hyperbole.

At the end of the day, right now, you get nothing. If you want to keep getting nothing, keep opposing a realistic idea (that is, something SE might actually do; restoring SCH and AST to their SB forms is low in work for the Devs and leaving WHM and SGE alone would ensure they don't have to worry about "Sylphies" mass quitting the role) that would reliably give you something.

That is, of the available options, the path of least resistance, that requires the least effort, and is least likely to backfire for SE to do is the 4 Healers Model.

[Shurrikhan]

No one wants their favorite to be given the short straw of galaxy brain rotations and being a DPS Caster instead of a Healer. No one wants to go from having a straightforward and understandable Job they enjoy to tripping over convoluted mechanics while juggling a complex DPS rotation.

Everyone can talk in hyperbole.

While yes, calling anything that's been suggested thus far "convoluted" or a "complex DPS rotation" would indeed be hyperbole, there's a hell of a difference also between an optional ceiling and literally having nothing beyond Glare, gauge-generator, gauge-spender, and a 30s DoT.

If the player doesn't want to engage with any more than the latter (or less even than that), they are free to do so in either case. If a player wants to engage with more than just that, such is only possible if there literally is more available than just that.

[AnotherPerson]

While yes, calling anything that's been suggested thus far "convoluted" or a "complex DPS rotation" would indeed be hyperbole, there's a hell of a difference also between an optional ceiling and literally having nothing beyond Glare, gauge-generator, gauge-spender, and a 30s DoT.

If the player doesn't want to engage with any more than the latter (or less even than that), they are free to do so in either case. If a player wants to engage with more than just that, such is only possible if there literally is more available than just that.

I'm surprised you haven't taken his advice and ignore him when he engages in hyperbole. It's literally on his signature.

[Renathras]

While yes, calling anything that's been suggested thus far "convoluted" or a "complex DPS rotation" would indeed be hyperbole,

Indeed.

Thank you for recognizing that I was demonstrating hyperbole by use of hyperbole. Like, that was literally what happened. She used hyperbole and I used an inverse hyperbole to show the absurdity of it. Also note she didn't mention any of the specific proposals claimed, so you can't used those as shield.

You needn't always attack my posts nor come to the defense of anyone I'm opposed to at the given time.

It's literally on his signature.

Is it?

Where in my sig does it say "ignore anyone who engages in hyperbole"?

Not that it matters, I was literally using it as example by inverting the hyperbole used to prove a point. Note I was making no argument based on the hyperbole, because I don't agree with the hyperbole on either side being true. I don't believe leaving some healers as they are now is giving them the "short straw" or "tripping over the skill ceiling" or any of the rest, nor do I believe some more DPS buttons for SOME of the Jobs is a terrible idea. So much so I support adding to their complexity in various ways and am 100% consistent in supporting SCH and AST being returned to their SB kits.

Sorry I meant GCD healing specifically. We want to squeeze in as many glares without letting the party die, and using cure and such is one less glare. We always prefer using oGCDs or lilies over them and I think that contributes a lot to how monotonous attacking feels right now.

Agreed. As I said in my post, it would honestly be better if we didn't have that hangup. Imo, EVERY WHM spell should feed the Blood Lily. We honestly should just remove Solace/Rapture. They could be replaced with a single Eukrasia-like "Afflatus" ability that costs 1 Lily and makes the next Cure 2 or Medica 1 instant cast and cost no MP. That would retain the ability to cast on the move (and be what Lilies are for) while also making all GCD heals have a point in keeping on your bar and making them damage neutral. Lower Misery to level 30 or something (at least as the base form of the spell; can have it upgrade to flashier forms later) and institute that system early. Regen would always be a useful movement tool, Cure 2 (moreso than now) and Medica 1 (especially) would have a reason to still exist, and it would make healing and damage dealing feel a lot more dynamic with WHM actually being functionally worked into being "the GCD healer" proper.

[Shurrikhan]

Indeed.

Thank you for recognizing that I was demonstrating hyperbole by use of hyperbole. Like, that was literally what happened. She used hyperbole and I used an inverse hyperbole to show the absurdity of it. Also note she didn't mention any of the specific proposals claimed, so you can't used those as shield.

<< {Points out the umpteenth time a failure to recognize difference between what is optional (such as skill ceilings with excess output) and what is not (such as being limited to... only what is there) because it's been the crux of almost every disagreement thus far.}
>> 'Your motivation for speaking can only possibly be to attack me.'



Unless your intent is solely juvenile "Uno-reverse!" BS, the two are inherently unequal because of what results from them.

At "worst", the result of exaggerating the lowness of the skill floor to force some agenda... is additional kit that would remain nonetheless optional, just as is true for what little exists between solely Broil spam and excess GCD healing... and the existing ceiling.

Exaggerating --"inverse" or otherwise-- that even a single additional element of engagement available to players would be a "convoluted... complex DPS rotation" that players would "trip over", on the other hand, at most just acts to deny players that optional space.

[AmiableApkallu]

As I said in my post, it would honestly be better if we didn't have that hangup. Imo, EVERY WHM spell should feed the Blood Lily ... and it would make healing and damage dealing feel a lot more dynamic with WHM actually being functionally worked into being "the GCD healer" proper.

Healing doesn't become more dynamic, because that's dictated by the incoming damage of the encounter and the tools available to address it, neither of which change under this proposal.

It also creates a new problem: You have to hit Misery every three GCD heals or else you start wasting feedings of the blood lily. If someone has an issue with GCD heals as they currently stand, they're certainly going to have an issue with this. For example, if they've already fed it twice, and then find themselves faced with a situation where two GCD heals are needed back to back...

But taking a step back, why are we designing for people who are more worried about what some third-party website tells them than doing their actual job? Why not simply agree that the only healers that have a hang-up about using GCD heals to keep the party alive are just bad healers?

[ASkellington]

Healing doesn't become more dynamic, because that's dictated by the incoming damage of the encounter and the tools available to address it, neither of which change under this proposal.

It also creates a new problem: You have to hit Misery every three GCD heals or else you start wasting feedings of the blood lily. If someone has an issue with GCD heals as they currently stand, they're certainly going to have an issue with this. For example, if they've already fed it twice, and then find themselves faced with a situation where two GCD heals are needed back to back...

But taking a step back, why are we designing for people who are more worried about what some third-party website tells them than doing their actual job? Why not simply agree that the only healers that have a hang-up about using GCD heals to keep the party alive are just bad healers?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "hung up".

I don't have a problem with using GCD heals when they're need. The problem I have is that come lv80+ content if my party is good they aren't needed at all and are a waste of space.

[Renathras]

...

I'm just...not going to with this.

Fulminating made a hyperbolic statement. I tried to show this by using hyperbole. You decided to call out MY hyperbole but not hers. And now you're on a tangent about me "failing to recognize" something when I was actively employing hyperbole as a rhetorical tool to argue against someone using hyperbole and not making an argument for or against any game changes in that statement.

I'm not sure how many ways to tell you "I was using hyperbole to show why hyperbole is bad" so that one of them sticks.

It wasn't "uno reverse" it was "please stop doing this". And I'll note you STILL haven't called out Fulminating for her use of it. Clearly you don't have an issue with the use of hyperbole or people not allowing for nuance, you're just arguing against me at this point, Picard meme or no. If that wasn't true, you'd be including her in your correction, which you clearly aren't.

So no, I'm not going to engage with you on this, since I wasn't seriously arguing that "a single element" was "convoluted". Get of your soapbox, seriously.

Healing doesn't become more dynamic, because...

There is absolutely more skill expression in having to find a safe time to stand and hardcast a heal than having an instant heal that does the same thing.

As for the Misery - as I noted in another thread, the simple address for that is to have Blood Lily stack to two. While you would need to press it at least once per 6 GCDs. But it doesn't change the fact that's already better than what we have now is, where you just don't touch GCD heals at all that don't have Afflatus in the name. THAT, to me, is a far bigger problem than having to find time to press a Misery ever 3/6 GCDs.

And I don't even know where you're coming from with "If someone has an issue with GCD heals as they currently stand"; the discussion - WHICH I DIDN'T START, I'll add:

Throwing this in here since this seems to be the most relevant topic.

A while back I tried doing a loop of Eukrasian Diagnosis -> Dosis/Dyskrasia until the barrier's broken -> Toxicon in a lv90 dungeon run and it was one of the most fun runs of healing a dungeon I've done. It felt like I was doing a combo befit a healer, but I never did it again since it's far worse than just spamming Dyskrasia while weaving addersgall heals.

So then I've been thinking, why are GCD heals (that aren't lilies, and even that's relatively recent) designed to be a dps loss? I know if a party member's dead that's a worse drop and all, but it still feels like we're being punished for doing what the role is supposed to do.

...was why GCD heals can't be damage neutral to actually allow for their use to NOT BE SUBOPTIMAL/ANTIOPTIMAL.

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I swear, it's like some of you see "Renathras" post about literally anything and you feel you have to argue against it, even when it was literally someone else's idea. And, oddly, never once do you guys go after that person instead with your counter arguments, you just quote my posts. One might be forgiven for thinking you guys are more just automatically opposing every post I make/thing I say rather than caring about the content, considering you aren't quoting and replying to the other people making those arguments...

Though I will say this is a good question:

But taking a step back, why are we designing for people who are more worried about what some third-party website tells them than doing their actual job?

...but it's also already been answered:

And like I said I do understand that keeping the party alive matters more for dps than you losing a glare. It's just that the trade-off doesn't feel great. It also makes the role as a whole largely a test of your reflexes and how much you can keep the party up with just oGCDs and lilies.

We want to squeeze in as many glares without letting the party die, and using cure and such is one less glare. We always prefer using oGCDs or lilies over them and I think that contributes a lot to how monotonous attacking feels right now.

Bold and underline emphasis added by me.

Again, you might read and reply to the person presenting this idea - and not just "Renathras said a thing, so I need to oppose it" - as she already presented the case well and arguments for the why. I was just agreeing with her and making mechanical suggestions for how it could be done.

If you're going to argue against the idea, quote Azurarok's posts and argue against her points. Don't quite mine and, yet again, argue against me specifically when I'm not the one championing the idea and she literally answered your questions already.

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It's like I'm not even allowed to post mere agreement with someone else without you people jumping down my throat, and then you act all confused when I point this out and ask you to stop.

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EDIT2:

Editing to add:

I think this right here is a large issue. Designing jobs for people who care so much about their funny numbers on a website is hurting the game in general, not just the healer role. Why should it matter that healing loses damage? Isn't that normal? I have to wonder how many of the people who are so concerned with losing damage by GCD healing are actually doing the content where losing that damage actually matters.

Again, that question was already answered:

Feel.

If you press Heavy Swing then Storm's Path on WAR - missing Maim and knowing you screwed up - it feels bad. The actual level of damage lost is pretty insignificant. The odds of that one mistake being the difference between a clear and enrage is so small as to be nonexistent. But it feels bad.

If you realize you have 2 AF left and AF is coming off CD, so you burn one on an ED but have to choose between using a second ED and pushing your AF CD to the right by one GCD or going ahead and refreshing AF, losing out on that one ED, it feels bad, regardless of the fact that it's a ridiculously small loss either way so that either "wrong" answer shouldn't, rationally, feel wrong at all because of how minute the difference is.

But that's the thing; Humans aren't always rational.

The irony here is people saying folks are worried about numbers - a mechanical argument - when folks are talking about how bad it FEELS - a non-mechanical argument that is actually in opposition to the mechanical argument since the difference is so minor, it can be handwaved away as RNG difference using the mechanical argument.

People aren't talking about the mechanical, Commander Data or Mr Spock analysis. That's what you guys are mistaking, I think. You think that's what they're talking about, but the mechanical argument would be the one to say the concern is illogical and irrelevant.

People are talking about the Dr McCoy or Counselor Troy feely argument.

[Aravell]

But taking a step back, why are we designing for people who are more worried about what some third-party website tells them than doing their actual job?

I think this right here is a large issue. Designing jobs for people who care so much about their funny numbers on a website is hurting the game in general, not just the healer role. Why should it matter that healing loses damage? Isn't that normal? I have to wonder how many of the people who are so concerned with losing damage by GCD healing are actually doing the content where losing that damage actually matters.

[Azurarok]

taking a step back, why are we designing for people who are more worried about what some third-party website tells them than doing their actual job? Why not simply agree that the only healers that have a hang-up about using GCD heals to keep the party alive are just bad healers?

A healer having to fall back to GCD heals isn't necessarily a fault of the healer though?? Harder duties are designed with the intent of making us use them anyways.

Like Renathras is saying my problem isn't with wanting to see stonks go up on some outside site, it's how absolutely mundane the role feels during healing downtime right now. There probably isn't any simple fix for that either, but making lilies dps neutral or even a gain certainly felt like a step in the right direction so that seems like a good spot to start looking into it. I also do have a problem with early skills becoming less and less useful as you reach higher levels too.

YoshiP's response to this sort of criticism was "go play harder content", and even there we still have healing downtime that also becomes longer the better skilled and geared your party is. And I still want other content to be more engaging too, especially solo duties from MSQs or just running fates on the overworld.