A summary of healer issues

[ty_taurus]

I disagree on WHM and floral/Aerith because it WOULD push too far on OP's rule 9 if you decided to make the identity explicitly feminine where no Job currently has a particular gendered aesthetic (though WHM probably comes closest). Not to mention we already have abilities that would do that. For example, Assize could simply upgrade to Sorcerous Storm, Divine Benison to Lustrous Shield, Aquaveil to Arcane Ward, Asylum to Planet's Protection, Misery to Soul Drain. There you go. Though I like the current animations better, and I'm not sure all of the single player FF7R animations would necessarily work with an MMO. For example, Soul Drain (I think it is) is a channeled spell. Look at how Passage of Arms and Collective Unconscious are used "optimally" and you an see why channeled spells are bad ideas at this point in FFXIV design.

I don't think Aerith's abilities are inherently any more or less feminine than anything white mage has currently. She of course is a woman, but her animations aren't overtly feminine; in fact, taking a quick look at her abilities, her animations are surprisingly quite neutral--sometimes even leaning toward what could be interpreted as ever so slightly masculine at times. The way she swings her staff is quite wide and very animated, not dainty or delicate. Several of her ability cast animations also have her stand with a more wide-spread stance. The spell effects themselves are quite vibrant and floral, but I don't think that would feel any more out-of-place than some of DNC's animations and effects.

Also, in regards to the channeling discussion, I think it's "Ray of Judgement" you're thinking off? Similarly to some of gunbreaker's animations, that could be reimagined in some fashion to work without the channel like how Blasting Zone doesn't take like 15 seconds like it does when Squall uses it in FF8, but I'd also be fine just taking some of her tools rather than doing all of them. With Part 2 coming out in the somewhat nearish future, not far off from 7.0, there might also be new options for animations to take from her.

[Renathras]

And they're completely aware of this as they die, because the stasis didn't remove their ability to think, just their ability to live. Terrifying thought, right? But we don't get that represented, partially because morbid, mostly because it's very difficult to convey that concept via gameplay.

As is normal, disagree on most, but this reminds me of what I feel is honestly the most terrifying death in all of Bleach. When the crazy scientist minded Captain guy gives his "superhuman" potion to one of the Arancaars. It hyperboosts his PERCEPTION, but his body is unable to react or function with the signals his hyper-mind is giving. It makes every second last a thousand years, but he can't move or speak, only think, frozen in time. Miyuri mentions to him how he may not even be able to understand his words at this point, because he'd be hearing each syllable slowly over the course of a (perceived) thousand years. He stabs his sword at the guy who can lift his arm barely at that point, and the sword goes into his upraised palm. Miyuri notes how that must be an eternity of agony as he slowly pushes the sword towards the guy's eyeball. Being able to see it coming for 10s of thousands of years, yet unable to do anything, not even to scream except inside his head for eons.

...and I remember thinking, that's the single worst possible way to die.

Yeah, best we NOT do that. I prefer big holy burst of spiritual power/magic.

...

Quite a few flowers, which I think we already have too many of. The way she raises her back arm for Ray of Judgement IS kind of dainty and delicate (though this will be up to individual perception, I suppose), and her Faeries are quite a bit more feminine than even SCH's, being little pink fluttering things shooting the little light balls. I don't like DNC's animations or effects, so...

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

I do like Sorcerous Storm, though. Have that be an upgraded Assize and make the BLM's jealous. I prefer Asylum's animation to her Arcane Ward, though, too. Soul Drain is basically a reverse Ruin. Not sure that's worth going for, especially since WHM has no similar ability and it would step too close to Energy Drain.

.

Anyway, I like most of WHM's current animations fine either way, and I was responding to the OP's 10 points. So...that's that.

[fulminating]

Yeah, best we NOT do that.

Isn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?

[Semirhage]

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

It's like you think people who actually know what they're talking about just make things up.

FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks.

[fulminating]

Does Chi Ten Jin count as a channelled ability? You're locked in place for the duration and possibly slightly before depending on how much you trust the servers.

[AnotherPerson]

Does Chi Ten Jin count as a channelled ability? You're locked in place for the duration and possibly slightly before depending on how much you trust the servers.

Yes, but not in the traditional sense. Ten Chi Jin also doesn't take into effect until you utilize the skills, but it can be seen as a way of channeling due to being locked in place and being unable to use any other skills other than what the "Channeled skill" provides as a result.

Another example of channeling is Leylines on BLM, but unlike Ten Chi Jin, Leylines isn't designed as a standalone channel ability. BLM is usually just casting at a 2.5 second GCD (excluding spell speed). After using leylines, Black mages are encouraged to continue "Channeling" their Fire IV rotation at level 60 for a flat 30 seconds within the small range of their circle as long as possible inside the leylines due to the lower cast time (a.k.a. soft-locked into place), but BLM can freely break off and move away from their leylines whenever possible and resume afterwards, giving it flexibility (and at higher levels, you can freely move between your leylines + get instant casts, giving the playstyle a lot more flexibility). BLM takes the whole channeling aspect as its foundational gameplay but on much shorter intervals.

The traditional standalone channeled abilities are skills like AST's Collective Unconscious. Collective Unconscious is not worth channeling over since you just need to snapshot the defensive buff + regen effect right before damage calculation. Any extra damage following that can be healed with Aspected Helios or other oGCD skills. The three cases of channeling Collective Unconscious:
1. To ensure everyone has been snapshotted with the buff. (Maybe 3 seconds longer in channeling for everyone to group up within range)
2. Continuously keep the defensive buff going because there's multiple instances of damage (ex: Euphrosyne 3rd boss phase transition) -- except at that point you have better healing skills at keeping players alive.
3. The supposed instance where you do want to channel is because channeling cost no MP and you're out of MP -- and this is definitely not the case for AST who has 3 potent sources of MP regeneration.

Not to mention, a standalone channeled ability can't do anything else but use that ability -- which often relegates it to a specific job in the toolkit. Again, in AST's case, if you want to channel it -- you can't be using any other skill or move to dodge mechanics, so the only time you channel is when there's a phase transition. Due to how overly abundant our healing toolkits are and how there's another specific "subrole" designed to work with mitigation (barrier healers), that's actually a huge negative to using a healing-channeled skill because there's so many other skills you can use together in the same duration to beat this channeled ability.

In casual play, damage is usually not high enough to warrant channeling Collective Unconscious -- not even mentioning all your other healing abilities, you have more value just using Aspected Helios or spamming Helios right after snapshotting the buff. In high-end play, DPS checks discourage channeling an ability that doesn't do damage if the damage doesn't outright kill you without needing the mitigation for a long period of time, but since you can't use your other healing skills or move either, it's also problematic to keeping people's HP up.

As a result, AST's Collective Unconscious use case is basically treated like Kerachole, just with a lower duration on the mitigation buff. In most cases, it's treated as an additional regen buff if you don't need the mitigation on snapshot to survive.

[ForsakenRoe]

Isn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?

Some (myself included) were on board with the idea of putting a new (well, not really, but way less done than the usual) spin on Necromancer as a healer, stealing life energy from enemies, giving it to allies, it makes sense because LB3 is 'you raise your whole team'. Necromancer as a caster would have, imo, been the most boring implementation possible, everyone does 'necromancer as a damage dealer'. 'Oh but the lore, necromancy is super taboo' yeh explain it as 'bad necromancers are perverting the life cycle, and you are part of a special group that brings peace to restless spirits so they can pass on and stop haunting places', problem solved. BLM is taboo, it almost ended the world at one point, but we're allowed to be one. DRK is taboo, but the first thing we do in Ishgard, not 10 minutes after being told 'dont make a scene' is kill 20 knights to stop an attempted rape. I don't see how there's some sort of 'line in the sand' on one specific job and how there's no possible way for the lore to be written that would allow for it to have 'the bad guys' and 'you' as using the same techniques, for different purposes. Hell, you summon voidsent with RPR, that's as taboo as it gets, but it's still a part of the game now

Now, I do like Sage from an aesthetic point, I watched some Kamen Rider, Gundam etc. Gameplay's not as 'there' as it could be though

FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks.

You have to move a lot more, a LOT more, in WOW, but they still manage to have channeled abilities. Mindflay's been a thing since forever, the reason it works is because it's the 'filler' spell, and the comparative power of each tick compared to other things is super low. If we had a healer that had a spell for it's filler that was 'channel a laserbeam at the enemy for 2.5 seconds, dealing 50p per 0.5s (total 250p damage), then when you have to move 1.5s of the way into the spell cast, you lose 2 ticks, for a total of just 100p lost. ATM if I did that on WHM, I lose a whole Glare cast basically, which is 310p. It'd just be a case of tuning it right if they were to do it. Channels can feel very impactful with good tuning though, look at Tranquility for example, massive raidwide healing on a long CD, but the channel feels good (despite locking you out of using other GCDs) because it heals so bloody much compared to anything else in the kit

No, the reason they don't want to do it for rotational abilities, they said at one point iirc. As far as I'm aware, the reason they never did them is that channeled spells mean you don't press anything while they channel, and they don't like the idea of 'press the button and sit there while the channel completes'. If you had a 5s channel, you'd have half the APM of any other caster as you let the channel complete. And if it were, eg, a 2.5s channel, I assume they'd look at it as 'well then lets just make it a regular cast time so we dont have to do engine work'

[fulminating]

Could be an interesting way to experiment with downsides/tradeoffs for instant cast heals. You get x hp now but over then next y ticks some amount of it leaks away or whatever. Maybe draining a bit of ally hp and storing as a minion until needed too, kind of similar to excog where the heal's in stasis until conditions are met.

I don't see how there's some sort of 'line in the sand' on one specific job

If you want the cynical answer, it's "china's too valuable to risk alienating". Voidsent are not-quite-ghosts enough to be shoved under the rug, but necromancy would be difficult to localise.

[ForsakenRoe]

If you want the cynical answer, it's "china's too valuable to risk alienating". Voidsent are not-quite-ghosts enough to be shoved under the rug, but necromancy would be difficult to localise.

Then call it something different in China. It's not Paladin in all regions, in Japan it's Knight. So have it as Necromancer in EN, 'Necromancer, but written in Katakana' in JP, and something analogous but not directly named as such for China. Occultist or Exorcist or whatever. And also, Diablo's got Necro as a class and that gets sold in China, right? I know about the censorship of skeletons they do over there (Scholomance's skulls in WOW all getting changed to loaves of bread is peak stupid), but there's ways to deal with it that isn't just 'OK we can't do this specific job idea we have because China won't like it'

As for design, the idea (in my mind) would be moreso stuff like 'put debuff on enemy, anyone that hits that enemy lifesteals', and there'd be interplay with filling the gauge with damage, then spending that damage on healing skills. It's no different really from if Energy Drain was the generator, and you spent the Flows on healing exclusively, but the aesthetic would be different, because of the class identity, the VFX, etc, giving the 'feel' of 'steal enemy lifeforce and redirect it to allies'. 'Necromancy' is a very wide school of magic, and it is kinda annoying to me that most games just boil it down to 'summon a skellyboner to hit enemies for you'. If you think about it not as 'summon dead stuff' but 'manipulate the energies of life and death' it is vastly more creative room



Retweet to scare the CCP

[Renathras]

and wet slaps

Uh... o.O (I'm not thinking of any kind of innuendo, I'm just not sure what "wet slaps" in this context would be... like what kind of medical instrument or device makes "wet slaps"...?)

That said, yeah, Miyuri is one sick dude.

It's like you think people who actually know what they're talking about just make things up.

No. It's not like that in any way. But nice try.

More?

Okay: In order to make it where it's worth using - to the people that say it's bad - they'd have to make the potency really high. Then it couldn't be a channeled ability. If the potency is less than the GCD of Glare for a tick, it's bad to use. This means an ability that ramps up OR an ability that starts high and ramps down (people would just cancel it at the point the down-slope crossed the Glare damage line). That is, if you had an ability that started at 500 potency per sec and decreased every by 50 potency every second for 10 seconds, you'd terminate it early since the last bit would be lower damage than a Glare. On the other hand, if it ramped up, the end point would have to be really high to justify the risk of ending it early. Conversely, if it was level the entire time, every tick would have to have a normalized damage greater than Glare as well. In any other case, it just makes more sense to cast a Glare. And it has to be higher ENOUGH to justify the risk.

That is, if you make it do greater enough damage than Glare, it still has to be significant otherwise you'll say it's not worth the risk. So for example, 310 potency for a 2.5 sec GCD (Glare III) equates to 124 potency per second. This means that if the channeled spell did, say, 125 potency per 1 second (312.5), you'd appraise it as not worth using (the locked in place risk) over Glare or that it's not "rewarding" good use/the risk involved. But at the point where it DOES become a solid increase, it's now likely great enough to widen the gap between the floor and ceiling player wider than the Devs want.

"designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks", in other words. (Not to mention "intuitive" and "rewarding" are not precisely defined terms here...Misery is intuitive and rewarding to most people, but you seem not to agree.)

One thing I think COULD help is if a channeled ability was your main nuke spell. Like, if it was your go-to "spamnuke" and had no CD on it. Most channeled abilties in MMOs tend to have some CD. The closest ones to not that I can think of are some iterations of Arcane Missiles on WoW Arcane Mage had low recast or procs or something so they were up all the time, and Shadow Priest Mind Flay. But in this case, it IS your spam nuke, and you'd use a different ability instead when you needed to be more mobile. So take SCH, for example. Imagine Broil IV itself was the channeled damage attack. Something like deals 120 damage per second for 3 seconds, 3 sec GCD. Note this normalizes to 300 damage per 2.5 sec, so this is doing more damage than current Broil IV. Then you have Ruin 2 over here on the side as instant cast that does 220 damage. In this sense, Broil IV is the one you're trying to use every 3 seconds as your channeled ability nuke and Ruin 2 is the button you press when you need movement, since it does more damage than Broil IV for anything less than 1.83... seconds of channel. Granted, you might normalize it over 5 sec or something instead, but whatever. So maybe Broil IV would be "120 damage every second for 5 seconds, GCD 5 seconds, channeled, consumes 150 MP per second, action ends on movement".

Point is, it can work that way, but then you'd probably dislike it since it would be swapping one "spamnuke" for another. Though arguably a much higher skill level other - Ruin 2 would now HAVE to be used (other than Biolysis natural refreshes) for oGCD weaving, for example, and you'd be pressing half as many Broil IVs because each would last twice as long.

That said, it would raise the skill ceiling some... even for good players who know where to plant their feet, oGCD optimizing would become tighter. You'd want to maximize every Ruin 2 cast by finding times where you need two oGCDs, like burn an Energy Drain and then pre-cast a Whispering Dawn for damage happening in several seconds using the Ruin 2 window to move to the safe spot and then hard channeling Broil IV once you get there.

Yes, but not in the traditional sense.

This.

The only traditional sense channeled abilities in the game are, I believe, Passage of Arms, Collective Unconscious, and Flamethrower. Especially Flamethrower because it has some special code where the damage is applied every 1 sec instead of every ~3 sec server tick. I'm not sure how it's unique in that way, but it seems to be. Oh, and Aetherpact is channeled, I guess...by Eos, though, not by the SCH.

Some (myself included) were on board with the idea of putting a new (well, not really, but way less done than the usual) spin on Necromancer as a healer, stealing life energy from enemies, giving it to allies,

I think it may be due to a lot of people thinking of Blood Mage for that. Not in the WoW (lore) sense for Blood Elves, but in the sense of Vanguard, Saga of Heroes. Apparently they had a class that worked as a sort of vampire healer, stealing health (damaging) enemies in various ways and spreading it as heals to either the mage or to their defensive target or party. People don't tend to think of that as Necromancer because it's not a Necromancer in the normal sense (no raising of undead thralls as minions and such, Raise aside).

Or imagine a WoW Warlock that did less damage but the health drain abilities it had healed party members as well as themselves. Something like that, anyway.

The problem is, FFXIV's combat system is, yet again, too rigid for this to really work. They'd just be regular heals with or Kardia that just had a different aesthetic. If SGE was renamed Blood Mage and Dosis to Drain Life, but worked exactly as it does today, one could argue it was a Blood Mage/vampire healer. But it would mechanically be the same thing.

Now, I do like Sage from an aesthetic point, I watched some Kamen Rider, Gundam etc. Gameplay's not as 'there' as it could be though

I think that's fair. It's not for everyone, but I honestly enjoy it. Which is weird because I prefer healing to doing damage, but I think it's because I like the aesthetics and I like how it is brimming with oGCDs so I feel like I'm able to engage with them all the time (unlike SCH where I feel I have to use my AF on ED and am limited only to longer oGCDs). I like being able to actively and continuously shield allies with Karachole, which no other healer can do aside from SCH, and SCHs that do it are "bad" (using AF on Soil instead of ED). It is funny that the "heals by doing damage" healer appeals the most (in this group of us) to the person that likes doing damage the least. Funny how that worked out...

Agreed with it needing to be the core of the rotation, though, as I said above myself. Tranquility is one of my favorite buttons in MMO history. Did they make it where it's not just your party? I think it was originally raidwide, then they nerfed it to just be your party, which was lame.