A summary of healer issues

[SieyaM]

Wait... why wouldn't you just be spamming Art of War during the gather if there are 4+ enemies in the pack? You're not a WHM; it's not like you have a cast-time on your AoE that you can't nullify. Just run right next to the tank.

That said, if your options truly were just between the likes of a 700p DoT and 220p Ruin II... that'd also be a reason not to spend an Aetherflow on spreading those DoTs unless an extra Lustrate would be unable to spare you a GCD heal anyways. Across the full gather, AoW's 165n ppgcd is likely to almost double the DoT's ppgcd and the couple earlier ticks on 1-3 mobs for some 280p max isn't going to reliably kill off the first half of mobs so much earlier as to save you a GCD heal you'd otherwise need to throw out towards the end.

If you could DoT-spread, you'd still save it for the the first moment you've reached the full gather, not the run-in, unless all mobs would die in less than the DoT's duration. Outside of a 2-minute burst, it's pretty rare that enemies get less than 30s TTK in a random party.

And if we wanted to actually balance Bane without again relying on absurd drop-off percentiles, it would probably follow something like the old HW suggestions of sharing, doubling, and then re-spreading the DoTs of all enemies in range, while causing enemies hit by Bane to also take on a debuff that causes them to detonate upon death (spreading their remaining durations split among onto enemies nearby -- stacking up to the original max duration -- or just bursting for a portion of the periodic damage stored.)


EDIT

To be more concise: What you're saying would be impacted by Bane almost certainly would not be because you wouldn't use Bane over that the gather (because it'd be a waste to put it on CD, let alone spend AF on it, before the full gather). Heck, Stormblood Bane came with massive damage-falloff (wasn't a damage gain over separate unnerfed DoTs until high enough target counts that you'd just use AoW instead during the gather). And even if Bane were returned, it would probably be in a slightly different form which could easily then actually provide more use of DoT GCDs than are presently optimal in dungeons.

I know I'm kind of necro'ing an old reply and also going to get a lot of heat for saying what I am about to. This kind of min/maxing doesn't really matter in dungeons where these pulls are happening. It really shouldn't matter if you trying to bio enemies as you run behind the tank or spam AoW running with the tank, it is not saving enough time to warrant worrying about it and casual content like dungeons shouldn't require knowing the ppgcd of every possible DPS option available to healers. Also to talk about Bane some, I feel like it has way more purpose when SCH had 3 dots to spread with it but with just one I am not sure it's worth adding a skill to spread their singular DoT, besides it would quickly become a case of all healers need an AoE DoT ability now because of balance.

[Absurdity]

Also to talk about Bane some, I feel like it has way more purpose when SCH had 3 dots to spread with it but with just one I am not sure it's worth adding a skill to spread their singular DoT, besides it would quickly become a case of all healers need an AoE DoT ability now because of balance.

You're absolutely right. As long as SCH only has a single DoT there is no real point to reintroducing Bane, you'd probably rarely ever need it when you can just do what you do rigt now, spam your single DoT on mobs while pulling wall-to-wall so by the time the tank stops you have most of them already dotted up.
If they did get their 3 DoTs back however we could run into a balance issue (not like that particularly matters for dungeons), it worked before Shadowbringers because the only AoE GCD they had was costly and did mediocre damage when spammed. If they kept Art of War they would have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options as well.

[Nizzi]

You're absolutely right. As long as SCH only has a single DoT there is no real point to reintroducing Bane, you'd probably rarely ever need it when you can just do what you do rigt now, spam your single DoT on mobs while pulling wall-to-wall so by the time the tank stops you have most of them already dotted up.
If they did get their 3 DoTs back however we could run into a balance issue (not like that particularly matters for dungeons), it worked before Shadowbringers because the only AoE GCD they had was costly and did mediocre damage when spammed. If they kept Art of War they would have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options as well.

Huh? All of the healers have more AoE damage options than Scholar. Scholar is the only job in the game with only 1 AoE damage button. Why would giving back Bane suddenly mean they "have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options" when all of them except SCH have 3 or more?

[Renathras]

Huh? All of the healers have more AoE damage options than Scholar. Scholar is the only job in the game with only 1 AoE damage button. Why would giving back Bane suddenly mean they "have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options" when all of them except SCH have 3 or more?

I think it would more be a numbers retuning thing.

Art does the most damage of all the healer AOEs.

Holy: 150
Art: 180
Gravity: 130
Dyskrasia: 170

...which becomes significant for each added enemy. For example, at 5 enemies, SCH is doing 250 more potency than AST would be (yes yes, Cards; that's part of balance). So if you gave SCH additional damage (DoTs), you'd have to reduce Art's damage or increase the other healer AOE damage options to balance them all out again. As some folks (Ty, for example) often point out here, back in ARR, SCH's damage was heavily DoT focused. How they achieved this was the DoTs had higher (relative) potency and Ruin had (relatively) lower. So let's say (for example) right now you do 1/3rd of your damage from Bio and 2/3rds from Broil. In ARR, it was more like 1/4th from Ruin and 3/4ths from all their DoTs added together.

So it's less the other healers would need more damage AOE options (if we ignore for a moment the people wanting more DPS buttons for all the healer Jobs) and more their abilities OR the other healer abilities would have to be retuned. Right now, the reason WHM's Glare and Dia do so much damage is because they don't have Cards (AST) or Chain (SCH), so the raw damage of their abilities is higher to compensate. Same with SGE.

[ForsakenRoe]

Right now, the reason WHM's Glare and Dia do so much damage is because they don't have Cards (AST) or Chain (SCH), so the raw damage of their abilities is higher to compensate. Same with SGE.

You're on about AOE though, since you're on about Bane being returned. Single target does not factor in here. And in AOE, SCH does the most damage with their AOE spam move even WITH Chain available to them. Yes, it's only on one mob, but there's also quite a few packs where one mob is significantly tankier than the rest (Behemoth and the goblins just before 2nd boss in latest dungeon). Also, Bane had a built in damage-reduction on the spread, first it was 10% diminishing per mob, then they converted it to a flat 60% reduction. I don't see why they'd need to bother changing much of anything. The damage of a Biolysis being spread by Bane in current game would be (700 - 60% = 280), but at the cost of a GCD to apply that Biolysis. Effectively, you'd be gaining 100p per mob (plus 520 for the main guy), but taking THIRTY seconds to reach that amount. Most pulls don't even last 30s.

Though instead of Bane, a move used specifically on AOE, I'd rather they had a move like what I've suggested: A retooled Shadowflare, which does not conflict with Soil, and drops a puddle on the floor under the targetted enemy for 15s, dealing 100p on cast and 50p per tick for 5 ticks, totalling 350p. This makes it useable on singletarget as a regular DOT, but also means it's worth using in AOE, but not high enough damage on cast to spam in AOE (else Art of Snore would become pointless). Bane was cool and all, but it's only going to be useful in AOE situations. It will be a 'dead button' in Raids, which makes it feel, to me at least, like it's not worth asking for. If SE were to go 'okay you get Bane back, that's your one wish gone and used' then I'd call it a waste, because SCH gameplay in Raid would still be the same as it is now

[Absurdity]

Huh? All of the healers have more AoE damage options than Scholar. Scholar is the only job in the game with only 1 AoE damage button. Why would giving back Bane suddenly mean they "have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options" when all of them except SCH have 3 or more?

Yeah, in hindsight "options" wasn't the correct word. They would need to look at the tuning of those other healer AoEs.

[Shurrikhan]

I know I'm kind of necro'ing an old reply and also going to get a lot of heat for saying what I am about to. This kind of min/maxing doesn't really matter in dungeons where these pulls are happening. It really shouldn't matter if you trying to bio enemies as you run behind the tank or spam AoW running with the tank, it is not saving enough time to warrant worrying about it and casual content like dungeons shouldn't require knowing the ppgcd of every possible DPS option available to healers.

Let's be clear here. I noted that one wouldn't optimally be using Bio-spam in that situation anyways only because the person to whom I was replying decided to use a singular joking anecdote (that Bio-spam is all we're left with if wondering where our PvP DoT -> Deployment Tactics went) to make the claim that Bane would detract from SCH's use of DoTs.

My point wasn't anything to do with that "you should hyper-optimize," but rather "adding Bane would not have the negative effects [the person I was replying to] claimed unless playing purposely non-optimally; even casual, normal play would not be thus affected."

Also to talk about Bane some, I feel like it has way more purpose when SCH had 3 dots to spread with it but with just one I am not sure it's worth adding a skill to spread their singular DoT, besides it would quickly become a case of all healers need an AoE DoT ability now because of balance.

Aye, which is why almost anyone asking for Bane... was also asking for more --and more integral/interesting-- DoTs. They're not isolated suggestions, except perhaps where the suggestion is to create an Aetherflow spender that can spread both DoTs and shields (replacing Deployment Tactics as a separate CD, in favor of a weaker but more readily available spread), the latter of which then tends to include contexts of greatly increased healing requirements, etc., etc.

You're absolutely right. As long as SCH only has a single DoT there is no real point to reintroducing Bane

Then reintroduce both?

If they did get their 3 DoTs back however we could run into a balance issue (not like that particularly matters for dungeons), it worked before Shadowbringers because the only AoE GCD they had was costly and did mediocre damage when spammed. If they kept Art of War they would have to give the other healers some more AoE damage options as well.

No, it wouldn't. Balance in any content in which balance is actually worth having tight is not determined by how much of your damage comes from periodic sources. Periodic, direct, pet-based, caster-based, unaspected, or physical, it's all still just potency. Enemy TTK in serious content is not low enough to be noticeably affected, and were the TTK low enough to be affected, it would always favor non-periodic damage.

The only impact is on Combined DPS+HPS curves. DoTs are effectively soft, per-target CDs, and CDs tend to collect the given kit's DPS increasingly into brief moments of opportunity (siphoned from their filler). With damage shifted from Broil to further DoTs, SCH could manage a higher DPS under a higher % of uptime spent healing than it does now, but that is easily balanced for across other kits (and probably would barely reach the tail of SGE's lead over everyone else).

If Phlegma, itself, doesn't break the game / healer balance (or Cards, for making that huge portion of AST's rDPS function regardless of healing uptime), neither will an extra DoT or two on SCH. (Note, however, that SGE's Combined HPS+DPS is almost balance-breaking, but that has next to nothing to do with Phlegma.)