A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

So then I've been thinking, why are GCD heals (that aren't lilies, and even that's relatively recent) designed to be a dps loss? I know if a party member's dead that's a worse drop and all, but it still feels like we're being punished for doing what the role is supposed to do.

Honestly, no idea. Some people think GCD heals being DPS neutral would make healers braindead/too easy/too forgiving/etc. Personally, I think it would be better than the current situation which is 1 button damage spam and oGCD weave healing and would offer a solution to get healers pressing other buttons and actually raise the active skill ceiling since you'd need to be able to figure out how to work out cast times to heal people and manage MP. But there are a lot of people that don't like that, who like planning out fights with oGCD healing plans for a more strategic gameplay than a tactical, "moment to moment" healing gameplay, and due to being bored with the one button damage that results from the oGCD healing plan, want more damage buttons/a dps rotation on all the healers.

Personally, I think the GCD healing and tactical gameplay is more fun and the right answer, but I get not everyone likes that, so I think having some healers that work with each would be the best answer, like say SCH having more damage buttons and oGCD/Faerie healing while WHM has more GCD healing and Misery refunding damage (like if all GCD heals contributed to the Blood Lily, not just Solace/Rapture). Other people want all the healers to be more like damage dealer rotations and keep the oGCD weaving/planned out entire encounter gameplay.

As for what the Devs are thinking, I'm not sure. You're right the healing/damage combo style of thing feels more fun (WHM could do it via Misery, SGE via Toxicon), though. They could even do two and two with AST/SCH being more oGCD focused and WHM/SGE being more GCD focused with damage neutral GCD heals. No reason not to, really. It's just a question of the Devs deciding if they'd want to to it.

Instead there’s a situation where I’ve been forced out of the game because I can’t stomach the miserable experience of playing any job I used to enjoy. It’s only getting worse, but I’m not angry enough to care anymore.

...and that's why the 4 Healers Model would be a good idea. Well, ANOTHER reason why it would be a good idea.

[fulminating]

...and that's why the 4 Healers Model would be a good idea. Well, ANOTHER reason why it would be a good idea.

It’s why it’s a bad idea. No one wants their favourite to be given the short straw of paint dryer simulator. No one wants to go from having room to grow to tripping over the skill ceiling.

But what about the terminally lazy you may ask? Well if only there was a convenient existing system that gradually introduced parts of the kit, provided a detailed description on what each new addition was and a regular opportunity to use it with new challenges appropriate for practice.

People being expected to know the correct rotation is exacerbated by the highly choreographed fight design present in the game. Yellow dead voidsent guy never casts anything but cursed echo first, wall hephiastos always casts natural alignment 1 from 35 to 40 seconds into combat, hippocampus always finishes the cast for water slide and becomes untargetable at 4m19 into the fight. When you can set your clock by the boss, all competitive improvement is rote learning.

Largely people don’t care if you’re not doing the correct rotation as long as you’re not standing around like a pudding or demonstrating a severe lack of reading comprehension; casual content barely demands consciousness. it simply does not make sense to sacrifice the possibility of nuance on whichever job to appeal to those who are unlikely to bother with content where it will matter.

[Renathras]

It’s why it’s a bad idea. No one wants their favourite to be given the short straw of paint dryer simulator. No one wants to go from having room to grow to tripping over the skill ceiling.

No one wants their favorite to be given the short straw of galaxy brain rotations and being a DPS Caster instead of a Healer. No one wants to go from having a straightforward and understandable Job they enjoy to tripping over convoluted mechanics while juggling a complex DPS rotation.

.

Everyone can talk in hyperbole.

At the end of the day, right now, you get nothing. If you want to keep getting nothing, keep opposing a realistic idea (that is, something SE might actually do; restoring SCH and AST to their SB forms is low in work for the Devs and leaving WHM and SGE alone would ensure they don't have to worry about "Sylphies" mass quitting the role) that would reliably give you something.

That is, of the available options, the path of least resistance, that requires the least effort, and is least likely to backfire for SE to do is the 4 Healers Model.

[Shurrikhan]

No one wants their favorite to be given the short straw of galaxy brain rotations and being a DPS Caster instead of a Healer. No one wants to go from having a straightforward and understandable Job they enjoy to tripping over convoluted mechanics while juggling a complex DPS rotation.

Everyone can talk in hyperbole.

While yes, calling anything that's been suggested thus far "convoluted" or a "complex DPS rotation" would indeed be hyperbole, there's a hell of a difference also between an optional ceiling and literally having nothing beyond Glare, gauge-generator, gauge-spender, and a 30s DoT.

If the player doesn't want to engage with any more than the latter (or less even than that), they are free to do so in either case. If a player wants to engage with more than just that, such is only possible if there literally is more available than just that.

[AnotherPerson]

While yes, calling anything that's been suggested thus far "convoluted" or a "complex DPS rotation" would indeed be hyperbole, there's a hell of a difference also between an optional ceiling and literally having nothing beyond Glare, gauge-generator, gauge-spender, and a 30s DoT.

If the player doesn't want to engage with any more than the latter (or less even than that), they are free to do so in either case. If a player wants to engage with more than just that, such is only possible if there literally is more available than just that.

I'm surprised you haven't taken his advice and ignore him when he engages in hyperbole. It's literally on his signature.

[fulminating]

No one wants their favorite to be given the short straw of galaxy brain rotations and being a DPS Caster instead of a Healer. No one wants to go from having a straightforward and understandable Job they enjoy to tripping over convoluted mechanics while juggling a complex DPS

If the theoretical cap is 10 arbitrary units, you can always play it at 4, if the cap is 4 there is no one who can play it at 7 or 9 or 10. Let’s consider summoner, the medium difficulty caster which has leapfrogged red mage in the race to the bottom. Do you know anyone that used to enjoy casually playing it, even badly, that still gives it the time of day? I don’t.

The amount of free healing has drastically increased. Reverting sch and ast is not going to address this; the whole role is in a terrible spot and I don’t really believe there’s an easy or low effort way out. If it does address that, but leaves the greedy healers with modern healing output, people learning will have a harder time swapping between the two halves. If whm and sge also have their output adjusted then their damage kit is completely wrong for casting multiple gcd heals; the more damage the dot contributes the less punishing heal casts are. The combat design has also changed, incoming damage is more spiky with periods of waiting for anything to happen. The problems are only going to get more ingrained unless immediate and drastic action is taken. I’m not holding my breath. They must fully admit defeat on the shadowbringers model and understand why it’s unsuitable.

I understand that you are fond of your pet idea, nevertheless I remain unconvinced.

[Azurarok]

Guilty of that for staying in my ley lines 2 minutes into the Byregot fight last night. I used manaward and addle though!

And like I said I do understand that keeping the party alive matters more for dps than you losing a glare. It's just that the trade-off doesn't feel great. It also makes the role as a whole largely a test of your reflexes and how much you can keep the party up with just oGCDs and lilies.

My impression is that the dps options were removed between SB and StB to discourage healers from attacking so they can focus on healing more, and it's kind of the only solution when attacking and healing is largely mutually exclusive. I doubt we'd ever really get out of the one-button dps setup as long as that design keeps up.

[IDontPetLalas]

Guilty of that for staying in my ley lines 2 minutes into the Byregot fight last night. I used manaward and addle though!

And like I said I do understand that keeping the party alive matters more for dps than you losing a glare. It's just that the trade-off doesn't feel great. It also makes the role as a whole largely a test of your reflexes and how much you can keep the party up with just oGCDs and lilies.

My impression is that the dps options were removed between SB and StB to discourage healers from attacking so they can focus on healing more, and it's kind of the only solution when attacking and healing is largely mutually exclusive. I doubt we'd ever really get out of the one-button dps setup as long as that design keeps up.

I'm not sure why you would see that attacking and healing is "largely mutually exclusive" with the skills that healers have, I would disagree on that. However I do agree that this is why SE removed DPS options i.e. in their minds they thought "hey isn't this want you wanted- you guys will heal more", with short-term and less than successful results.

[Azurarok]

I'm not sure why you would see that attacking and healing is "largely mutually exclusive" with the skills that healers have

Sorry I meant GCD healing specifically. We want to squeeze in as many glares without letting the party die, and using cure and such is one less glare. We always prefer using oGCDs or lilies over them and I think that contributes a lot to how monotonous attacking feels right now.

[IDontPetLalas]

Sorry I meant GCD healing specifically. We want to squeeze in as many glares without letting the party die, and using cure and such is one less glare. We always prefer using oGCDs or lilies over them and I think that contributes a lot to how monotonous attacking feels right now.

Thanks for the clarification, I see your point, and agreed, and (for myself, part of this is due to the lack of interaction between healing and damage skills at present, and the lack of options for damage skills in some content.