A summary of healer issues

[Shurrikhan]

So the problem is three parts:

1) FFXIV Healer Jobs are designed to be, and feel like, Healers.
2) FFXIV encounter design seems to be based on having DPS and Support (even many mechanics are executed this way), not DPS, Healers, and (often) Tanks.
3) ...but FFXIV's rigid combat system doesn't really even allow for Support, it just allows for "things that are worse at DPS" but required (sometimes) by some encounter specific mechanic.

(1) isn't inherently a problem, but for the fact (2) exists; but (2) is also its own problem because of (3).

Aye, this hits the nail on the head.

Related food for thought, though:

Is it even possible to have difficulty enough to allow for an environment that can allow for Support (and for that matter, Healers and Tanks being worthwhile beyond a mere 'composition check' mechanic) for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content... if we keep allowing players to so badly overgear said content?

On that note... do we even need content to be allowed a maximum item level (more than slightly) above the item level that content itself grants?

(Assume for this question that we're free to proportionately reduce grind times via increased rewards or whatnot to compensate for the added time these activities would take by not making them increasingly a joke [e.g., from 4 Savage BiS raiders streaming through The Aetherfront at i550+ to being capped at the dungeon's i525 or the previous tier's BiS of i530].)

* 'Difficulty' here being what allows for short-term DPS checks and CC value, AoE damage that'd actually be punishing and might need a speed boost to be avoided enough [think linear fall-off / proximity-based AoEs] not to use up healer GCDs (for costs contextually significant in more ways than just the lost offensive-ppgcd of that uptime expended), etc., etc.

[Renathras]

[B]Is it even possible to have difficulty enough to allow for an environment that can allow for Support (and for that matter, Healers and Tanks being worthwhile beyond a mere 'composition check' mechanic) for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content... if we keep allowing players to so badly overgear said content?

I think so, yes.

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level. TBC Heroics required crowd control, for example, because the enemies hit too hard and players couldn't just AOE burn everything to the ground at the time. Basically, doing content unsynced, which used to be how every MMO worked. The idea of syncing to do content is (relatively) novel in MMOs, but by that point, people kind of want it to be. I don't think anyone WANTS Aurum Vale to be ARR AV level of difficult/obnoxious. Was it SCH that didn't have Leaches at that level, so you couldn't even cure Poison and just had to deal with it? I think once the game has moved to the next expansion, players largely want Leveling/etc roulettes to be relative pushovers. While there are some people that desire Mythic+ levels of engagement, I think most people don't want that from that kind of content, and prefer the sync feature for resource grinds, getting to run content decently tuned with new friends to the game (as opposed to just power-leveling/running them since your character can sneeze and destroy all enemies in the zone), and ensuring new players can clear essential content reliably.

As for on level content, I think we're always going to have the MSQ in the game, but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases. If, for the sake of argument, we actually did have Support as a role (say BRD/MCH/DNC/maybe RDM?) with CC and stuff, we could have harder content designed for it, like Criterion (none of that "Criterion Action" stuff; you need to actually form parties in /shout like we did in 2007!). In "normal" content, they'd just slot in as one of the DPS slots, but in the harder content designed for it, they'd have their own dedicated spot. Wouldn't be hard for that kind of content to have field effects that do things like "natural HP and MP regeneration is suppressed/suspended while in combat". Considering they have an effect for this that prevents raises AND some PotD floors can have a no natural HP recovery effect (a real PITA if you get that while on a Job without healing and happened to get a Pox from a Mimic...), so it's entirely possible to do it. That would make things like Regens more valuable as well as MP refreshes. Like EQ Enchanters/Bards being desired in parties for that same reason - Healer (and Caster) MP needs.

The thing is, it would require at least some changes overall, like doing away with the 2 min meta and such. Probably would be better for Tanks and Healers as well, since such content would give them room to shine, too, and it would give people that outlet for those wanting content that really leans into roles and their capabilities.

It's not at all impossible, just requires the game - specifically CONTENT within the game - to be built around it.

Heck, FFXIV already has the foundation for it - all those status effects every Extreme/Savage/Ultimate boss in the game is immune to...are still in the game. All Casters have Sleep, all Healers have Repose, all Tanks and Melee have Stun (PLD has two), all Tanks have Interrupt, all Ranged have Heavy, Silence, and either Pacify or Root, I forget which. And that's before we look at the insanity that is PvP with no diminishing returns.

The coding is in the game for stuff like the old Caster MP transfer ability to other players.

And look at BLU's abilities - that actually use all that stuff. Look at JUST what afflictions Bad Breath slaps on things you hit with it.

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

The last time we could CC a boss outside of a mere interrupt, though... was the very first in the game (Ifrit HM), no? It's not exactly relevant to any difficult content. (Though, I certain would love to see Savage Dungeons and Exploratory Missions. I'd spam that shit just for fun.)

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level.

Right, but that's why I asked about having that "for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content".

Is the ability to speedrun anything and everything really worth wrecking an increasingly large portion (already some 99%) of the game over?

Do the 'gotta go fast' benefits of letting, say, Crystal Tower scale to nearly twice its minimum item level... really outweigh the mass content-degradation is causes by removing its difficulty (or even a third or more of mechanics, in many cases)?

but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases

Tbh, I don't even really think that's a problem. Heck, being able to flex the norm is... a fun bonus, really. It's just when the matchmade norm is pretty clearly inferior that we'd have a problem.

What I meant by the difficulty necessary to situate Support is more... mechanics and situations where support beyond just "Here's another rDPS buff!" would actually be worthwhile. A in-combat speed buff being worthwhile, for instance, requires having some things that you are otherwise going to be hit or would otherwise cost quite all but the contextually hypermobile some amount of rDPS, even if not necessarily as a one-shot (which in turn requires a particular balance between healer restorative vs. offensive ppgcd, etc).

For Support to be a thing, I suspect there need to be a decently tight balance between roles, including a certain fungibility to their outputs (tank turtling = healer chadding, instead of just a waste of resource; healer having spending oGCDs previously saved for emergencies that can no longer happen = melee can, in fact, stand in that fire; etc.), and also mechanics that are willing to hurt / pressure.

But if we only have even the last bit (sufficiently difficult/pressuring environments) in 1% of content (Ultimates and the latest Savage) simply because we can so outgear everything else... would that even seem worth the effort?

[Banriikku]

So we have a "Healer" class design, a DPS heavy Encounter design and with the flaw that support with utility will break it very fast so only DPS support will work properly
If we have this, then changing the current healer classes to support (aka dps with heal options) or "full heal" will not help or change it. In the end that means the encounter design is flawed and needs changes before we even can touch classes ?
Also does this mean "holy trinity" is not properly used in FF14? Because all this problems seem to stem from the idea of "holy trinity" but with a terrible execution.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think there's a misunderstanding going on here. Overwatch refers to their characters as Tank, Healer and Damage because Blizzard has a history of making an MMO. But the Healer could just as easily be called 'Support'. The Tanks could be 'Defender' or 'Guardian' or whatever synonym. Getting hung up on what 'being a support vs healer is' doesn't really get us anywhere. Why is the word 'Healer' or 'Support' being given such gravity, that it dictates what the role MUST do? Does Omniknight or Oracle in DOTA not count as a 'support' because they have a skill that heals allies? Are they instead a 'healer', in a game that doesn't use that term anywhere else? What about the League analogues (i dont play idk names), are they 'healers' or 'supports'? Lifeline and Wattson in Apex can restore allies HP and Shield respectively, does that make them healers?

By this logic, the solution is actually to rename the role to Support. We sure as heck aren't 'healers' if we're spending like 50% of our GCDs on nonhealing stuff, or using damage amping kit like ChainStrat or Divination. And hey, if the devs believe the same thing about the role's design (it needs more healing tools because it's a healer), renaming it to Support might actually get them to think 'oh hang on, there's more to designing a job than 'another AOE healing tool'

[Banriikku]

As far i know in Overwatch there is no healer, only support and if you play like a healer you are a bad player. IN OW you have Support and if you are pedantic there is also flex but does not matter for the argument.

In FF14 i have the feeling we have a extreme DPS favored encounter design but the classes (WHM, SGE, SCH, AST) are build with "healer" idea in mind. The healer idea is simply put a class that extemly focused on healing and keeping the party alive while the DPS department is nonexistent or only to a extreme minimalstic degree there.
SO we have "the healer idea" as a job, while the encounter is DPS favored which leads to 98% Dosis cast in a full extreme fight and this is just bad design. But sadly so it seems on a fundamental level that we just can't make healer class to supporters. The encounter design needs a change first... (while they are at it : Kill the 2 minute meta pls).

[ForsakenRoe]

As far i know in Overwatch there is no healer, only support and if you play like a healer you are a bad player. IN OW you have Support and if you are pedantic there is also flex but does not matter for the argument.

Right, they play like supports, they have support kits, and playing like a 'pure healer' is kinda griefing.

But the role is called 'healer' in OW, not support. Which is my point, the word 'healer' or 'support' is too broad in overlap to get hung up over. Trying to justify why healers in FFXIV cannot have more 'support' stuff with 'because the role is called healer, not support' is really not-sensible imo, because we're in the same boat here as OW: heal allies when they need it, help kill enemies when they don't. Issue is, in OW there's gonna be people in need of healing a lot more often than here in FF, due to it being PVP and this being strict spreadsheetable fight timelines

[Banriikku]

I think Support is the role but healer the name. We keep the healers as they are and we get an Enocunter Design change so that healing to that exten is needed or a more support role BUT this would also need a encounter design change first.
All encounter are build around DPS and low utility. If you are adding utility in form of a supporter the encounter would break. I dont say "no to supporter in FF14" but SE needs to aknowledge that the enocunter design is failed and needs a rework that first or all healer changes will be for naught.

[ty_taurus]

This is an argument of semantics, and one that is arbitrary. A “healer” is any “support” that restores HP. “Support” characters/classes have low overall damage in exchange for brining utility—non-damage related effects that make encounters easier: healing, mitigation, crowd control, mobility, cleansing, dispelling…

The only difference it would make if the role was labeled “support” is that we might’ve seen it also include jobs like bard, dancer, and red mage, and those jobs might’ve offered more support than just increased healing effects and a cleanse on bard, a little extra healing on dancer, and increased healing/mitigation and instant raises on red mage.

[Banriikku]

Semantic ? No, i try to make the diffrence clear:
Healer is healing focused and DPS is an afterthought
Support is supporting and DPS is an important part of the kit

And as i stated earlier, the encounter design ist the problem or the job design. A question that gets one of two answers depending of your viewpoint:
1. The Job needs more in line with the encounter, therfore more DPS and utility
or
2. The encounter Design needs to change to make "full heal " work

Also we dont talk here about DPS with support option, we talk about healers and how SE could change them for the better. Sure we can look what is possible but to take away from other jobs.. i dont think that is necessary, not after SE tries to strip everything away from all jobs.