A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

[B]Is it even possible to have difficulty enough to allow for an environment that can allow for Support (and for that matter, Healers and Tanks being worthwhile beyond a mere 'composition check' mechanic) for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content... if we keep allowing players to so badly overgear said content?

I think so, yes.

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level. TBC Heroics required crowd control, for example, because the enemies hit too hard and players couldn't just AOE burn everything to the ground at the time. Basically, doing content unsynced, which used to be how every MMO worked. The idea of syncing to do content is (relatively) novel in MMOs, but by that point, people kind of want it to be. I don't think anyone WANTS Aurum Vale to be ARR AV level of difficult/obnoxious. Was it SCH that didn't have Leaches at that level, so you couldn't even cure Poison and just had to deal with it? I think once the game has moved to the next expansion, players largely want Leveling/etc roulettes to be relative pushovers. While there are some people that desire Mythic+ levels of engagement, I think most people don't want that from that kind of content, and prefer the sync feature for resource grinds, getting to run content decently tuned with new friends to the game (as opposed to just power-leveling/running them since your character can sneeze and destroy all enemies in the zone), and ensuring new players can clear essential content reliably.

As for on level content, I think we're always going to have the MSQ in the game, but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases. If, for the sake of argument, we actually did have Support as a role (say BRD/MCH/DNC/maybe RDM?) with CC and stuff, we could have harder content designed for it, like Criterion (none of that "Criterion Action" stuff; you need to actually form parties in /shout like we did in 2007!). In "normal" content, they'd just slot in as one of the DPS slots, but in the harder content designed for it, they'd have their own dedicated spot. Wouldn't be hard for that kind of content to have field effects that do things like "natural HP and MP regeneration is suppressed/suspended while in combat". Considering they have an effect for this that prevents raises AND some PotD floors can have a no natural HP recovery effect (a real PITA if you get that while on a Job without healing and happened to get a Pox from a Mimic...), so it's entirely possible to do it. That would make things like Regens more valuable as well as MP refreshes. Like EQ Enchanters/Bards being desired in parties for that same reason - Healer (and Caster) MP needs.

The thing is, it would require at least some changes overall, like doing away with the 2 min meta and such. Probably would be better for Tanks and Healers as well, since such content would give them room to shine, too, and it would give people that outlet for those wanting content that really leans into roles and their capabilities.

It's not at all impossible, just requires the game - specifically CONTENT within the game - to be built around it.

Heck, FFXIV already has the foundation for it - all those status effects every Extreme/Savage/Ultimate boss in the game is immune to...are still in the game. All Casters have Sleep, all Healers have Repose, all Tanks and Melee have Stun (PLD has two), all Tanks have Interrupt, all Ranged have Heavy, Silence, and either Pacify or Root, I forget which. And that's before we look at the insanity that is PvP with no diminishing returns.

The coding is in the game for stuff like the old Caster MP transfer ability to other players.

And look at BLU's abilities - that actually use all that stuff. Look at JUST what afflictions Bad Breath slaps on things you hit with it.

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

The last time we could CC a boss outside of a mere interrupt, though... was the very first in the game (Ifrit HM), no? It's not exactly relevant to any difficult content. (Though, I certain would love to see Savage Dungeons and Exploratory Missions. I'd spam that shit just for fun.)

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level.

Right, but that's why I asked about having that "for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content".

Is the ability to speedrun anything and everything really worth wrecking an increasingly large portion (already some 99%) of the game over?

Do the 'gotta go fast' benefits of letting, say, Crystal Tower scale to nearly twice its minimum item level... really outweigh the mass content-degradation is causes by removing its difficulty (or even a third or more of mechanics, in many cases)?

but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases

Tbh, I don't even really think that's a problem. Heck, being able to flex the norm is... a fun bonus, really. It's just when the matchmade norm is pretty clearly inferior that we'd have a problem.

What I meant by the difficulty necessary to situate Support is more... mechanics and situations where support beyond just "Here's another rDPS buff!" would actually be worthwhile. A in-combat speed buff being worthwhile, for instance, requires having some things that you are otherwise going to be hit or would otherwise cost quite all but the contextually hypermobile some amount of rDPS, even if not necessarily as a one-shot (which in turn requires a particular balance between healer restorative vs. offensive ppgcd, etc).

For Support to be a thing, I suspect there need to be a decently tight balance between roles, including a certain fungibility to their outputs (tank turtling = healer chadding, instead of just a waste of resource; healer having spending oGCDs previously saved for emergencies that can no longer happen = melee can, in fact, stand in that fire; etc.), and also mechanics that are willing to hurt / pressure.

But if we only have even the last bit (sufficiently difficult/pressuring environments) in 1% of content (Ultimates and the latest Savage) simply because we can so outgear everything else... would that even seem worth the effort?