A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

Okay. Again. Would you still feel this way if they were simple (soft) CDs, with the available frequency of (unpenalized) applications shown on your hotbar?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "(soft) CDs"?

Do you mean like Circle of Scorn and Sonic Break where the abilities themselves have the CDs and just deal their damage as a DoT instead of a burst for......reasons? Personally, I think that's stupid - messes with the debuff cap and reduce's a Job's capability for on-demand burst damage, which means they're weaker in stuff like Deep Dungeons and pushing phases in Ultimates, the two places that might matter - but I've already said it's more or less the same in terms of execution as just having abilities like Assize that are "use on CD", so I have no inherent problem with it. I would think it's stupid, of course, but it wouldn't really bother me much. They'd need to be AOE in that case, of course (since you only cast the one then it's on CD for the duration, to DoT up multiple targets would require they be AOEs), and it would be kinda weird in a 4 man AOE DoT with the one spell then just running behind the tank casting Regen on them and then planting both thumbs firmly up our butts until the Tank stops running so we can start into the Holy Spam, but...meh, that wouldn't be absolutely terrible. Although...

...I also have to stress: That's more rigid and less flexible than Lily use now. Lilies now recharge every 20 sec, but you have the entire 60 sec window to decide when to use them in (so you don't overcap on Lilies), making this like PLD Holy Spirit. This is a good thing.

Having rigid CDs does not allow this, and is thus not as good a thing.

It'd be better to just to ignore the DoT and do more stuff like Plegma. Like say WHM had an "Aero" spell that generates charges every 20 sec and can stack up to 3 charges, and every time you use all three, you get a "Water" spell that does big damage. This would allow much more flexibility and you could save the Aeros to use all at once, or space them out. Unlike a DoT, you could slam them back to back if you wanted to, and unlike a DoT with a hard CD, you wouldn't be penalized for stacking them or not using them right on CD. Seems better in every way to me, honestly.

Well it's more just most people want to see each job look stronger, to feel like they've "leveled up"...

Maybe. I feel we already get that with new abilities. We got a more powerful Glare and Holy this expansion, as well as Misery being more powerful, and we got Aquaveil (which is kind of a nice little ability to have) and Lilybell (which my big complaint on is why the hell the CD is so long).

Honestly, I also find the "reinvent the wheel" doesn't always work out so well. Sometimes it works out great (like SMN; and still generates tons of backlash despite working out great), and other times, it works out horribly (like AST). You also have people that love their Job and just want some QOL tweaks getting complete revamps. In fact, most of the time MMOs change Jobs too much, people pine for "the good old days", sometimes for years.

As much as "so people don't get bored" is presented here, it's really not as valid of an argument as people think, I don't believe. And I also think this is another case of "some should get it and some shouldn't". In MMOs, I tend to like the classes that change the least with time, not the ones that change the most. The WoW classes I liked most when I did finally quit were the ones most similar to the way they were back in the Wrath/Cata era. That is, the ones that changed the least over time.

...

Yeah, one of the big problems with DoTs - no matter the game - has always been the UI. In WoW, almost everyone who used a DoT class had add-ons telling them when the DoTs were about to be up to refresh them. Which defeats the whole purpose, since you aren't "managing" your DoTs, you're just refreshing them with a script/program tells you like a trained monkey. It was kind of unsurprising to me to hear that high end FFXIV players also were using add-ons to tell them this same thing. Refreshing a thing when told to isn't skill, and is actually less skill than even refreshing a hard CD is since at least that you're figuring out on your own.

[ty_taurus]

I feel we already get that with new abilities. We got a more powerful Glare and Holy this expansion, as well as Misery being more powerful, and we got Aquaveil (which is kind of a nice little ability to have) and Lilybell (which my big complaint on is why the hell the CD is so long).

The constant cycling out of one attack animation for a new, bigger, flashier, even more blinding basic attack that many of us here are exhausted of 10 minutes after getting it is not a very satisfying ascension of power. Meanwhile, let's take a look at a job like Red Mage. The cost of their melee combo was reduced, so now they get to engage with their melee combo a lot more, they got a new attack in Resolution which adds a third climatic finisher to those now more frequent melee combos, and they got Magick Barrier, an exciting form of utility on a job that had nothing like it previously, allowing a Red Mage to actually contribute to sustain and mitigation more effectively. These are only a few of their changes, but they are the high points of what feels new and different about Red Mage, and that's a job that really didn't change very much, yet still felt like it got something new and valuable.

If we take a look at White Mage, they do indeed get Aquaveil, a tool that accomplishes something White Mage could already do with Divine Benison, and they get Liturgy, a really pretty looking form of healing that is extremely unnecessary in many normal forms of content because nearly all of that excess healing will go to waste and has an unnecessarily long 3 minute cooldown even when you do use it. Now, to be fair, when we take White Mage into more challenging environments, new Savage fights in particular introduces more frequent instances where Liturgy's nature of being placed and activating automatically as the White Mage takes damage is a very useful tool. Introduce a new tool, and introduce a new problem for that new tool to solve. That's a good thing. But this is only limited to those more challenging environments for the modestly skilled White Mage player.

None of that really feels like White Mage has evolved. The most impactful changes are things that are quality of life improvements that really should've been there a long time ago, like finally fixing Afflatus Misery in 6.1. That is really the only major change that feels like a real step forward for the job, and that's something that should've been there day 1 of Shadowbringers, but it took us 3 years to get that.

Honestly, I also find the "reinvent the wheel" doesn't always work out so well. Sometimes it works out great (like SMN; and still generates tons of backlash despite working out great), and other times, it works out horribly (like AST). You also have people that love their Job and just want some QOL tweaks getting complete revamps. In fact, most of the time MMOs change Jobs too much, people pine for "the good old days", sometimes for years.

That's correct. Reinventing the wheel does come with great risks, but it's an inevitable aspect of live service games. You might not feel like getting bored of things is a major threat, but there's a lot of market research that says otherwise. Most people want to see new things, even if it's quite difficult to squeeze new things in. Yoshida commented on a similar topic, though with regards to new jobs. “From a system perspective, if the number of jobs is fixed and well-balanced, there’s no need to add more, and adding new jobs would obviously cause a stir,” he said. “But nevertheless, we always need to add more jobs to keep providing new gameplay experiences.” This also applies to new actions for each existing job. The job actions trailer is one of the biggest moments that generates a lot of interest in an upcoming expansion. If certain jobs were revealed to be getting nothing, that could possibly have a really negative impact on the financial success of the next expansion. I can't really speak about concrete numbers on this, because I'm not their marketing producer. But it's important to understand why that can be a major factor even if it's not something that would affect your own perspective of the game.

[Renathras]

Pretty much every DoT ever (except Circle of Scorn, Sonic Break, etc), full potency after whatever duration, and can be applied early. What makes DoTs a "soft" CD is that it's not a cooldown but you want to wait similar to a cooldown.

Abilities like WAR Storms Eye and RPR Death's Design (can't remember the actual skill name, just the status) are also soft cooldowns.

Oh, so you're just saying "Would you like it better if it was what we have right now"?

I'm confused how that's even a question, since I don't like the kinds of DoTs we have right now. Why would asking me if I'd like new DoTs that are the same as the ones we have now that I already dislike make sense?

I have to think it's something different. Like "DoT does 50 to 100 potency per tick for 30 seconds (10 ticks); the potency scales from 50-100 based on the last time the DoT was used; using it at the full duration applies the next DoT with maximum potency, and this decreases down to 50 and builds up again". In other words, if you spam it on several targets, the first one gets the full 100, but the others only get 50 (since you're using it back to back) unless you wait until the last one wears off to apply another.

Personally, I'd find that worse instead of better, but at least it would be...different.

...

RDM's combo cost was reduced to make it either harder to optimize or easier to play at an entry level, and at this point, I'm honestly not quite sure which. The changes it got with each expansion were adding an additional stinger onto the end of its combo (Scorch then Resolution; which are effectively just "more special effects" like Glare/Holy upgrades, the kinds of things people here SAY they don't like/want for healers, and the functionally it's no different than just pressing Holy/Flare three times, and Scorch/Resolution are even the same button, which is more akin to a lazier version of my "Empowered Holy" idea that a lot of people don't like because it doesn't add more DPS buttons), getting a charge to Acceleration (and rebalancing what it's supposed to do), and...well...Reprisal. /shrug Oh, and Magicked Barrier. Neither of which are "exciting". Magicked Barrier is as "exciting" as Temperance or Expedience, and since those don't count, Magicked Barrier can't. Scorch/Resolution are as exciting as Afflatus Misery, and to be fair, Misery was pretty widely praised and people have loved it ever since.

Honestly, I find Expedience FAR more exciting than Temperance or Magicked Barrier. Not only is it something SCH didn't have anything like before, but it's something NO JOB IN THE GAME had anything like before unless we count out of combat Pelaton, and has a lot of fantastic uses. Not to mention (people always seem to forget) it also has the damage reduction, meaning it's got a built-in Temperance/Magicked Barrier as an added bonus.

So if we look at White Mage with this same lens you've applied to RDM:

ShB:

WHM got an entirely new Job mechanic in the revamped (and actually functional) Lily system, allowing them to build up to a mega attack with efficient, MP free instant cast heals that can be used on the move for powerful healing options. They also got Temperance, an exciting form of utility on a Job that had nothing like it previously (I'm not mocking you here, WHM legitimately didn't have a partywide damage mitigation previously; we can't really count Protect since that was a "apply before combat, reapply after Raises" thing, not an active form of mitigation), allowing White Mage to actually contribute to sustain and mitigation more effectively. These are only a few of their changes, but they are they high points of what feels new and different about White Mage, and why players felt like it got something new and valuable.

EW:

WHM initially sucked due to 6.0, but let's pretend that didn't happen for a moment here:

WHM received Aquaveil, a tool powerful single target mitigation tool that White Mage did not have before, as well as a second charge on Divine Benison, allowing WHM to excel in two Tank situations or have free use of spot mitigation on endangered party members, as well as an extremely powerful healing tool in Lilybell that can be placed remotely and used by the WHM both for a powerful burst of healing, remote healing when the WHM cannot safely be near the center of the party, and countering multi-hit attack mechanics! (Though I do agree the CD is ridiculous)

Taken together, the shift from SB to ShB - much reviled by most of you here - was, in fact, such an evolution on the Job. It completely revamped how WHM heals, WHM's MP economy and management, and how it can approach mitigation scenarios. This was buttressed by EW WHM, at least after 6.1 when Misery was made damage neutral and Lilybell had the added early detonate feature that was missing from the start.

Those ARE the kinds of things you guys are asking for, but you all hated them...so I'm a bit confused here.

Hell, SB -> ShB SCH was a textbook case of "reinventing the wheel" since they completely changed how Faerie oGCDs and macros worked, as well as completely changing SCH damage.

Clearly, "reinventing the wheel" does not always end up better. Though I do personally think the WHM reinvention was a success, I seem to be alone, here, in that regard. You might argue that you don't mean THAT kind of reinventing, only adding things, not taking things away, but taking things away IS a form of reinventing the wheel (and one of the reasons it's a monkey's paw), and besides that, things WERE added, just not thinks you liked. Or, at least, many things you didn't like or didn't think made up for what was removed.

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Personally, I think some things changing and some things staying the same is the solution. What are the two most praised Jobs in the game right now? BLM and DRG. What are the two Jobs in the game right now ARGUABLY most like their ARR forms? BLM and DRG. I think there's an important lesson in that.

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I guess on this, I'd just say to you "Ware the monkey's paw..."