A summary of healer issues

[Shurrikhan]

Wouldn't that be a step in the right direction though?

Yep. My calling it "not a bad thing" as compared to just outright "a likely improvement" was more in response to those complaining that any increase in healer offensive actions would overly raise the skill floor.

[ty_taurus]

There's something that's been on my mind this morning that I wanted to talk about in regards to the population of healers throughout the expansions we've seen pop up in a few different discussions from time-to-time. Basically, it's been brought up that there is a higher population of healer players now than there was during Stormblood, but also less than during Heavensward. The question is about what this information is actually telling us in relation to how players have responded to healer job design across the expansions. If the reason why people level healers was exclusively about what jobs players enjoyed, than it would make sense that the state of Endwalker's healers would be seen collectively as better than Stormblood's, but it's not the only factor.

What's really interesting about Shadwobringers particularly, where the number picks up from the dip it experienced in Stormblood, was the introduction of Role Quests with more interesting lore than any of the Job Quests had displayed before. I for one had never even unlocked the tank jobs up until Shadowbringers with the Role Quests as my primary reason. I also was doing it to unlock the Amaro mount which required I level every job to 80. Now that I keep up with all jobs, I'm also gradually collecting all the relic weapons (since there's nothing else I care to buy using tomestones) so it's very likely that I've counted toward the total number of tank players in recent census data despite the fact that I have never once queued as a tank for any group content at all, not even for leveling. I leveled all of them using Squadrons, Frontlines, Beast Quests, Trust Dungeons, and Wonderous Tails. I count toward the healer data as well despite refusing to ever queue as a healer for group content specifically because of how unhappy I am with their gameplay.

All of this is very anecdotal, but my point is that there are other driving forces to why someone would level a job other than because they enjoy playing as that job, more now than there was during Stormblood. Leveling has also become easier than ever. In other words, the actual percentage of players who actively play healer is undoubtedly lower than the total population implies, but without knowing by how much, how can we really say that there are more active healers now than during Stormblood?

[Aravell]

All of this is very anecdotal, but my point is that there are other driving forces to why someone would level a job other than because they enjoy playing as that job, more now than there was during Stormblood. Leveling has also become easier than ever. In other words, the actual percentage of players who actively play healer is undoubtedly lower than the total population implies, but without knowing by how much, how can we really say that there are more active healers now than during Stormblood?

I think the dip in Stormblood being used to explain that healer players don't like that direction is wrong. I'm almost 100% sure that the dip at that point was due to the fact that the most popular healer, WHM, was destroyed with the lily system. You do raise a good point about the role quests, some people would level a healer just for that, which would bring me to a point that I would like to make, how many of those endgame healer players in the data are people who level exclusively on SMN and get a free max level SCH?

[Renathras]

Quick question:

Was WMH's SB rotation acceptable for a modern Healer?
(Some of you know where I'm going with this, but I'm just curious...)

[ty_taurus]

I think the dip in Stormblood being used to explain that healer players don't like that direction is wrong. I'm almost 100% sure that the dip at that point was due to the fact that the most popular healer, WHM, was destroyed with the lily system. You do raise a good point about the role quests, some people would level a healer just for that, which would bring me to a point that I would like to make, how many of those endgame healer players in the data are people who level exclusively on SMN and get a free max level SCH?

I believe the number is based on if you have a weapon of a certain ilevel or higher, which you would get if you obtained that job's relic weapon. I believe it was ilevel 615 or higher prior to 6.4, but I could be completely wrong.

[Semirhage]

Quick question:

Was WMH's SB rotation acceptable for a modern Healer?
(Some of you know where I'm going with this, but I'm just curious...)

No.

/10char

[ForsakenRoe]

Quick question:

Was WMH's SB rotation acceptable for a modern Healer?
(Some of you know where I'm going with this, but I'm just curious...)

Whether I think it was acceptable or not is neither here nor there because it had the bad-lily system. To say 'WHM SB but with the Misery system too' is something I can't speak for because it didn't exist, and is just theorycraft. I'd like to think that it would be decent enough though. Filler, DOT, Assize, Aero-3 can be thought of as a Phlegma of sorts, and then Misery, especially now that it's damage neutral.

Rather than asking 'is it acceptable for a modern healer', consider that the nonhealer classes have had 4 years of evolution upon 'their' SB version. The answer to the question then is another question: 'was WHM's SB damage rotation a good baseline to build off of going into SHB', to which I'd say the answer is 'yeh, if you fix the trash lily system it had potential'. After all, having 'an extra GCD (Aero3/Banish) that you use every (24/15) seconds' and 'a DOT (Aero2/Rescaled-Dia) that you use every (18/12)' is not exactly too far from one another in terms of design space, only in terms of numerical balance, so it'd be a bit hypocritical of me to say something quite similar to my own design idea is 'not acceptable', instead I'll just say it was an acceptable baseline to add 4 years of fixes and additions to, like the other roles got

[Renathras]

Right right, but that isn't the point:

I was only asking about the DPS rotation.

Then was going to ask specifically WHY. Alongside the thread where I'm looking at rotations, I'm trying to decide how much IS and IS NOT enough.

People here constantly praise SB's design, and when I point out EW WHM actually has a more engaging overall DPS "rotation", get met with derision. But I want to see what exactly that is. Saying ShB and EW suck and SB is better must mean just that or it has no meaning. If people mean SB was better...but just for SCH, then that's a pretty different argument, and calls for a different solution. And note that the praise for HW is often even higher for regulars here.

I also disagree that just because other Jobs have changed means every one should. For all the talk of how Healers were in ARR, most Jobs were different in ARR. Modern NIN is pretty unrecognizable, for example, and post-6.3 PLD is actually closer to ARR PLD than pre-6.3 PLD was. Does every Job really need 25 DPS buttons and at least three Job gauges? I should hope not, because that's why I actually hate most Melee Jobs.

.

EDIT:

You seem to believe this is an objective fact and everyone should see the data the same way, but it's not an objective fact. People find engagement in different things. Some people will find EW WHM more engaging, but personally, I don't find a 30s singular DoT and wasting a healing resource every 20s just so I can get a damage neutral hit every minute to be engaging in the slightest. I found SB more engaging with the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them.

I suppose it depends on what one takes as "more engaging", which is subjective.

What isn't and is objective is that EW WHM has more non-Glare GCDs per minute than SB WHM had non-Stone GCDs per minute. It is objectively factual that SB WHM, in a situation where minimal healing was required, had less non-Stone casts per minute/had more nukespam than EW WHM does. Though the difference is slight, it's there and objectively true.

I do agree people find enjoyment in different things, but it's in vogue around here to insist that doesn't matter.

[Aravell]

and when I point out EW WHM actually has a more engaging overall DPS "rotation"

You seem to believe this is an objective fact and everyone should see the data the same way, but it's not an objective fact. People find engagement in different things. Some people will find EW WHM more engaging, but personally, I don't find a 30s singular DoT and wasting a healing resource every 20s just so I can get a damage neutral hit every minute to be engaging in the slightest. I found SB more engaging with the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them.

[ty_taurus]

It's more that what people are referencing as the strong point in Stormblood's design wasn't the actual kits themselves, because they were a mixed bag, but rather the feel and flow of most jobs' complexity. It wasn't as punishing as Heavensward was, but at the same time, still retained a modest level of nuance that allowed performing your job well to feel rewarding. Despite this, there were still clear pain points for each healer. What would be ideal would be using that as a reference point to build something more fresh and new for the healers.

In terms of White Mage's old DPS tools, the main thing that changes outside of Afflatus Misery is having 2 DoTs at 18 seconds and 24 seconds instead of 1 DoT at 30 seconds. That's all that changes, and while that's not nothing, it brings us back to the argument brought up back then, that White Mage already lost Aero as a third DoT of 15 seconds, even though it had been power crept at that point, and Fluid Aura which had its damage removed. And Roe also has a point that the healers are missing 4 years worth of evolution to their offensive library. Mind you, that evolution doesn't necessarily need to be new branches or components to your gameplay. It could just be additional finishers on stuff, like enabling some type of follow up nuke after Presence of Mind or something.