A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

Whm is very much an elemental mage in ff14, this is the same “justification” they used for fucking up summoner. Or please also campaign for sage to be made back into a blm-whm-smn and so on.

Don't care about SGE. If you want it to be a RDM without the melee, I'm not going to complain. I've already said I don't like Plegma being near-melee range. Heck, I've even outright said - multiple times - SGE having a RDM-like caster rotation that it Kardia heals off of would be fine by me, and possibly even a preferred solution. I'm perfectly fine with that. I won't campaign for it - since I don't care - but if you want to campaign for that, I'd support your campaign.

And no, CNJ is an elemental mage in FFXIV. WHM is a Holy Mage. Started in ARR with Cure and Holy, and they fully cemented it in ShB with Glare and Dia. SMN's fine, the DoT mage thing never made sense for it. The game SHOULD, however, have a Green Mage for that (or maybe Time Mage...) archetype. Bio, Ruin, Fester, etc never made sense on a Job called "Summoner" anyway, and I think everyone knows it, just a lot of people really liked that playstyle.

When I first started playing, I didn't like white mage being the earth/wind/water mage (especially since the water aspect of that was half-assed with fluid aura and is now just non-existent ignorant of lore), and wanted black mage to have all 6 elements like in past titles, including XI.

Bingo. There are times, Ty, that we're very much alike. (I get you're saying your mind was changed after, but mine wasn't). Priest and Cleric are among my favorite archetypes in games, so "bland and uninteresting" isn't the word I'd use for them. I'd use that for Jobs like DNC.

In a lore sense, strictly speaking (sorta), WHM hasn't moved away from them, it's perfected them. We now know that Umbral/Light and Astral/Darkness can basically be considered "fundamental" elements. All other "lesser" elements derive from these. Sorta like considering Astral/Umbral as the fundamental blocks upon which everything else is built. Like say Umbral/Astral are protons/neutrons/electrons (or quarks if we want to go that far) and Fire/Earth/etc are molecules built from combining atoms made out of protons/neutrons/electrons. Though with that funky twist there can be "Umbral Fire" (dry heat) or "Astral Water" (tidal waves). But in a cliffnotes version, WHM has perfected their arts to where they're no longer borrowing the Elementals' power but directly tapping into the prime Umbral itself, like the Amdapori did. There are a lot of lore implications there, but since we no longer have Job quests...we'll never have to deal with them, I suppose. XD (Or they'd handwave it as us only taking what we need and doing it responsibly, whichever.)

Being able to pick spell rank animations would be cool, though. Like on RDM, I liked the Verthunder purple squiggly line bolt that we don't have now. I remember watching a video of opening the gates of AQ40 in WoW once. The big event where the giant stompy anubises rampaged across the desert there in Silithis? (I think it was Silithis...) One thing I always thought was cool was you could identify what classes were present (the ranged/caster ones, anyway) by the effects of their spells. Like you could see a Frostbolt and know there was a Frost Mage there. Shadowbolt for Warlock. Lightning Bolt for Shaman, Wrath for Druid, etc etc. Something in my head, I like identifying classes by their casts. It's probably the same thing that has me count DoT debuffs on Hunt Marks to see about how many of each Healer Job are present (and other Jobs that I quickly recognize their debuff icons). And I liked that RDM lightning bolt thing. Kinda miss it since the new one doesn't do that/have a travel animation.

In any case, being able to pick your spell animation - probably same rules as Glam where you can pick any of the lesser ones you have, like you couldn't replace Stone IV with Glare but you could replace Glare with Stone IV - would be neat. All the more reason to add in a level 15 Water as proto-Holy, eh? A simple system wouldn't have a lot of animations, but just letting you pick any level of a spell might work. But it would have to be for direct upgrade paths, probably. For instance, BLM's 1, 3, and 4 spells are all distinct, not upgrades (except Thunder 4, I guess?), unlike Verthunder/Verthunder 3, which are direct upgrades, or the Stone line. SCH Ruin 2 is also not a direct line with the Ruin/Broil line.

I disagree on WHM and floral/Aerith because it WOULD push too far on OP's rule 9 if you decided to make the identity explicitly feminine where no Job currently has a particular gendered aesthetic (though WHM probably comes closest). Not to mention we already have abilities that would do that. For example, Assize could simply upgrade to Sorcerous Storm, Divine Benison to Lustrous Shield, Aquaveil to Arcane Ward, Asylum to Planet's Protection, Misery to Soul Drain. There you go. Though I like the current animations better, and I'm not sure all of the single player FF7R animations would necessarily work with an MMO. For example, Soul Drain (I think it is) is a channeled spell. Look at how Passage of Arms and Collective Unconscious are used "optimally" and you an see why channeled spells are bad ideas at this point in FFXIV design.

[ForsakenRoe]

I disagree on WHM and floral/Aerith because it WOULD push too far on OP's rule 9 if you decided to make the identity explicitly feminine where no Job currently has a particular gendered aesthetic (though WHM probably comes closest). Not to mention we already have abilities that would do that. For example, Assize could simply upgrade to Sorcerous Storm, Divine Benison to Lustrous Shield, Aquaveil to Arcane Ward, Asylum to Planet's Protection, Misery to Soul Drain. There you go. Though I like the current animations better, and I'm not sure all of the single player FF7R animations would necessarily work with an MMO. For example, Soul Drain (I think it is) is a channeled spell. Look at how Passage of Arms and Collective Unconscious are used "optimally" and you an see why channeled spells are bad ideas at this point in FFXIV design.

Those 'channeled spells' you give as examples of 'its bad' are 'bad' because channeling them eats into your damage. Presumably (I haven't played ff7r) Soul Drain is a damaging skill. So, if it's 'channeled over X seconds' and does more damage than just using it then immediately clipping it with another GCD, then it will be held out for the duration of the channel. In fact, it's less punishing to use a channel than an actual cast time, because if you have to move 50% of the way into the duration, you lose the whole cast time and have nothing to show for it, but you still got half of the channel's effectiveness.

You want an example of a damaging channel, you've got Flamethrower. But that only gets used in AOE because of tuning. If it was 2000p over it's 10s duration, it'd get used on CD and people would complain about how they have to stand still for so long (but still use it because its the most damage)

And Umbral is not a 'building block', it's a polarity. Fire isn't made of Astral, or Umbral. Fire is like iron (an element of a different kind I guess), and Astral or Umbral are the magnetic polarities it gets pulled towards. Or we could look at it as a lot of different dualities. The game also addresses them as Dark and Light respectively. None of the six elements are made of 'Light', but they can be tilted towards that state. One that might make more sense, especially with Shadowbringers plot and such is, Entropy and Order. Being a practitioner of a school of magic that is literally 'order-aligned magic' would imply a degree of control over what makes reality, reality. Indeed, we saw what pure Order as a force can do, it erases everything and just leaves blank white nothing. But, I think that kind of aesthetic, of someone with that kind of power, is a bit too 'god-modey' to be messing with. Especially when WHM's opposite number, BLM, doesn't use 'Pure Astral' in the same way WHM does with Glare. Astral Fire and Umbral Ice are a thing, yes, but to be WHM-equivalent, BLM would have to shift over to using Xenoglossy in place of Fire4

Imagine if you will, since life itself is inherently entropic to some degree, that to properly represent the 'power' of pure Umbral, of it's stasis inducing effect, a White Mage has the ability to hit someone with a spell, and essentially disable 'life' in that person. They breathe, but oxygen no longer soaks into their blood. Their heart beats, but the blood does not circulate. And they're completely aware of this as they die, because the stasis didn't remove their ability to think, just their ability to live. Terrifying thought, right? But we don't get that represented, partially because morbid, mostly because it's very difficult to convey that concept via gameplay. So, instead we have glittery lights. Which is why (I think) some people preferred the 'down to earth' (heh) nature of the elemental spells. BLM has Fire, Thunder, Ice, and at higher levels, dabbles in 'pure Astral' with Xenoglossy/Foul. WHM is the foil to that, using Earth, Wind, Water, and at higher levels, dabbling in pure Umbral. If they had explained it, rather than just converting all the damage spells to lights, as that the WHM uses Umbral polarity as part of their spells in focused amounts to slow down the life processes of a wounded ally, so they have more time before the wound claims them (if they have been stabbed, using Umbral to slow their heart rate so less blood leaves through the wound buys them more time), that'd have been a completely logical and lorefriendly way to implement the Umbral side of things, I think. Or if they really wanted to make something of the damage side of things be 'Umbral-ized', just do it to the DOT. Dia has been a previous FF White Magic but I don't recall Glare being one. Was it in FF11 or something

4.6k characters ffs not again

[ty_taurus]

I disagree on WHM and floral/Aerith because it WOULD push too far on OP's rule 9 if you decided to make the identity explicitly feminine where no Job currently has a particular gendered aesthetic (though WHM probably comes closest). Not to mention we already have abilities that would do that. For example, Assize could simply upgrade to Sorcerous Storm, Divine Benison to Lustrous Shield, Aquaveil to Arcane Ward, Asylum to Planet's Protection, Misery to Soul Drain. There you go. Though I like the current animations better, and I'm not sure all of the single player FF7R animations would necessarily work with an MMO. For example, Soul Drain (I think it is) is a channeled spell. Look at how Passage of Arms and Collective Unconscious are used "optimally" and you an see why channeled spells are bad ideas at this point in FFXIV design.

I don't think Aerith's abilities are inherently any more or less feminine than anything white mage has currently. She of course is a woman, but her animations aren't overtly feminine; in fact, taking a quick look at her abilities, her animations are surprisingly quite neutral--sometimes even leaning toward what could be interpreted as ever so slightly masculine at times. The way she swings her staff is quite wide and very animated, not dainty or delicate. Several of her ability cast animations also have her stand with a more wide-spread stance. The spell effects themselves are quite vibrant and floral, but I don't think that would feel any more out-of-place than some of DNC's animations and effects.

Also, in regards to the channeling discussion, I think it's "Ray of Judgement" you're thinking off? Similarly to some of gunbreaker's animations, that could be reimagined in some fashion to work without the channel like how Blasting Zone doesn't take like 15 seconds like it does when Squall uses it in FF8, but I'd also be fine just taking some of her tools rather than doing all of them. With Part 2 coming out in the somewhat nearish future, not far off from 7.0, there might also be new options for animations to take from her.

[Renathras]

And they're completely aware of this as they die, because the stasis didn't remove their ability to think, just their ability to live. Terrifying thought, right? But we don't get that represented, partially because morbid, mostly because it's very difficult to convey that concept via gameplay.

As is normal, disagree on most, but this reminds me of what I feel is honestly the most terrifying death in all of Bleach. When the crazy scientist minded Captain guy gives his "superhuman" potion to one of the Arancaars. It hyperboosts his PERCEPTION, but his body is unable to react or function with the signals his hyper-mind is giving. It makes every second last a thousand years, but he can't move or speak, only think, frozen in time. Miyuri mentions to him how he may not even be able to understand his words at this point, because he'd be hearing each syllable slowly over the course of a (perceived) thousand years. He stabs his sword at the guy who can lift his arm barely at that point, and the sword goes into his upraised palm. Miyuri notes how that must be an eternity of agony as he slowly pushes the sword towards the guy's eyeball. Being able to see it coming for 10s of thousands of years, yet unable to do anything, not even to scream except inside his head for eons.

...and I remember thinking, that's the single worst possible way to die.

Yeah, best we NOT do that. I prefer big holy burst of spiritual power/magic.

...

Quite a few flowers, which I think we already have too many of. The way she raises her back arm for Ray of Judgement IS kind of dainty and delicate (though this will be up to individual perception, I suppose), and her Faeries are quite a bit more feminine than even SCH's, being little pink fluttering things shooting the little light balls. I don't like DNC's animations or effects, so...

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

I do like Sorcerous Storm, though. Have that be an upgraded Assize and make the BLM's jealous. I prefer Asylum's animation to her Arcane Ward, though, too. Soul Drain is basically a reverse Ruin. Not sure that's worth going for, especially since WHM has no similar ability and it would step too close to Energy Drain.

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Anyway, I like most of WHM's current animations fine either way, and I was responding to the OP's 10 points. So...that's that.

[fulminating]

Yeah, best we NOT do that.

Isn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?

[Semirhage]

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

It's like you think people who actually know what they're talking about just make things up.

FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks.

[ForsakenRoe]

Isn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?

Some (myself included) were on board with the idea of putting a new (well, not really, but way less done than the usual) spin on Necromancer as a healer, stealing life energy from enemies, giving it to allies, it makes sense because LB3 is 'you raise your whole team'. Necromancer as a caster would have, imo, been the most boring implementation possible, everyone does 'necromancer as a damage dealer'. 'Oh but the lore, necromancy is super taboo' yeh explain it as 'bad necromancers are perverting the life cycle, and you are part of a special group that brings peace to restless spirits so they can pass on and stop haunting places', problem solved. BLM is taboo, it almost ended the world at one point, but we're allowed to be one. DRK is taboo, but the first thing we do in Ishgard, not 10 minutes after being told 'dont make a scene' is kill 20 knights to stop an attempted rape. I don't see how there's some sort of 'line in the sand' on one specific job and how there's no possible way for the lore to be written that would allow for it to have 'the bad guys' and 'you' as using the same techniques, for different purposes. Hell, you summon voidsent with RPR, that's as taboo as it gets, but it's still a part of the game now

Now, I do like Sage from an aesthetic point, I watched some Kamen Rider, Gundam etc. Gameplay's not as 'there' as it could be though

FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks.

You have to move a lot more, a LOT more, in WOW, but they still manage to have channeled abilities. Mindflay's been a thing since forever, the reason it works is because it's the 'filler' spell, and the comparative power of each tick compared to other things is super low. If we had a healer that had a spell for it's filler that was 'channel a laserbeam at the enemy for 2.5 seconds, dealing 50p per 0.5s (total 250p damage), then when you have to move 1.5s of the way into the spell cast, you lose 2 ticks, for a total of just 100p lost. ATM if I did that on WHM, I lose a whole Glare cast basically, which is 310p. It'd just be a case of tuning it right if they were to do it. Channels can feel very impactful with good tuning though, look at Tranquility for example, massive raidwide healing on a long CD, but the channel feels good (despite locking you out of using other GCDs) because it heals so bloody much compared to anything else in the kit

No, the reason they don't want to do it for rotational abilities, they said at one point iirc. As far as I'm aware, the reason they never did them is that channeled spells mean you don't press anything while they channel, and they don't like the idea of 'press the button and sit there while the channel completes'. If you had a 5s channel, you'd have half the APM of any other caster as you let the channel complete. And if it were, eg, a 2.5s channel, I assume they'd look at it as 'well then lets just make it a regular cast time so we dont have to do engine work'

[fulminating]

Could be an interesting way to experiment with downsides/tradeoffs for instant cast heals. You get x hp now but over then next y ticks some amount of it leaks away or whatever. Maybe draining a bit of ally hp and storing as a minion until needed too, kind of similar to excog where the heal's in stasis until conditions are met.

I don't see how there's some sort of 'line in the sand' on one specific job

If you want the cynical answer, it's "china's too valuable to risk alienating". Voidsent are not-quite-ghosts enough to be shoved under the rug, but necromancy would be difficult to localise.

[ForsakenRoe]

If you want the cynical answer, it's "china's too valuable to risk alienating". Voidsent are not-quite-ghosts enough to be shoved under the rug, but necromancy would be difficult to localise.

Then call it something different in China. It's not Paladin in all regions, in Japan it's Knight. So have it as Necromancer in EN, 'Necromancer, but written in Katakana' in JP, and something analogous but not directly named as such for China. Occultist or Exorcist or whatever. And also, Diablo's got Necro as a class and that gets sold in China, right? I know about the censorship of skeletons they do over there (Scholomance's skulls in WOW all getting changed to loaves of bread is peak stupid), but there's ways to deal with it that isn't just 'OK we can't do this specific job idea we have because China won't like it'

As for design, the idea (in my mind) would be moreso stuff like 'put debuff on enemy, anyone that hits that enemy lifesteals', and there'd be interplay with filling the gauge with damage, then spending that damage on healing skills. It's no different really from if Energy Drain was the generator, and you spent the Flows on healing exclusively, but the aesthetic would be different, because of the class identity, the VFX, etc, giving the 'feel' of 'steal enemy lifeforce and redirect it to allies'. 'Necromancy' is a very wide school of magic, and it is kinda annoying to me that most games just boil it down to 'summon a skellyboner to hit enemies for you'. If you think about it not as 'summon dead stuff' but 'manipulate the energies of life and death' it is vastly more creative room



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