A summary of healer issues

[Recon1o6]

snip

Hard agree on the room for optimising. I won't dispute that, even as someone who thinks parses etc are dumb. (I see skill expression more of executing mechanics consistently and adjusting your rotation accordingly to maintain uptime rather than chasing perfect numbers through greed and overgearing)

As someone who likes support though, I don't think GCD cards is a good idea from a fun or rotational standpoints.

Fun wise, there's a flat number of gcds per minute. By turning the cards gcd, this limits what options you have for spells which is the issue with all healers- lack of damage spells. Astrologian would still end up having a very dull rotation of Draw-Navigate to target-Play card-malefic-malefic etc since all your stacks will be detonated by malefic as you said.
Or if they are detonated by other players...your still spamming malefic when not using cards since someone's nicked your stacks


On rotation- This would also have the problem on controller of extreme APM scrolling through the party list depending on what card you draw no matter if its teh current invisible cards, or the previous fun cards. Not everyone will have the idea or hotbar space for a macro to every player. Assuming your rotation involves more cards than before that is to set up the various buffs.
Too few cards and you're stuck casting malefic, too many and you easily get a repeat of 5.0-5.3 Ast issues.

[ty_taurus]

Hard agree on the room for optimising. I won't dispute that, even as someone who thinks parses etc are dumb. (I see skill expression more of executing mechanics consistently and adjusting your rotation accordingly to maintain uptime rather than chasing perfect numbers through greed and overgearing)

As someone who likes support though, I don't think GCD cards is a good idea from a fun or rotational standpoints.

Fun wise, there's a flat number of gcds per minute. By turning the cards gcd, this limits what options you have for spells which is the issue with all healers- lack of damage spells. Astrologian would still end up having a very dull rotation of Draw-Navigate to target-Play card-malefic-malefic etc since all your stacks will be detonated by malefic as you said.
Or if they are detonated by other players...your still spamming malefic when not using cards since someone's nicked your stacks


On rotation- This would also have the problem on controller of extreme APM scrolling through the party list depending on what card you draw no matter if its teh current invisible cards, or the previous fun cards. Not everyone will have the idea or hotbar space for a macro to every player. Assuming your rotation involves more cards than before that is to set up the various buffs.
Too few cards and you're stuck casting malefic, too many and you easily get a repeat of 5.0-5.3 Ast issues.

I bounced around a lot on the concept because it's a tricky one and I do not have access to the best environment to experiment with it which is a prototyping build. If I were on the clock and able to test it in engine, I'd probably have a more concrete example of what I envision, which is all just to say that I haven't solidified any specific iteration of the concept as of yet. However, here are some more specifics to the general idea I have in mind and why I think it does work:

If it's on the GCD, then Drawing and Playing a card do not require being weaved onto target party members while maintaining Malefic uptime on the boss. I also would have you able to Draw and Hold multiple cards and play them in that order, so you can Draw 3 cards and begin planning who they belong on. Another idea is that all cards are played on yourself to a maximum, and Celestial Opposition is another GCD action that applies the effects of all your cards to the party. Celestial Intersection could be another GCD in this example that doubles the effect of the cards on one party member that you can use after each Celestial Opposition. This combo would also mitigate the amount of needed single target weaving. Sleeve Draw returns giving you 3 cards with a priority system... something like Balance > Arrow > Spear > Bole > Ewer > Spire, or whatever depending on what card effects I stuck to, essentially ensuring you have the optimal trio for buff windows while making decision-based gameplay about the time between those windows.

Additionally, Minor Arcana would also be a GCD card action, and would generate the lord, lady, and knave which would replace actions on your hotbar as upgraded versions of those actions which also net you those passive DPS stars. Lord replaces Gravity, for example, while Lady replaces Helios. I've gone back and forth on what I'd see of the Knave, but there would no longer be RNG with the Minor Arcana since you get all of them each time.

The DPS library would end up looking like something to this effect:
- Malefic, your filler
- A new spell that generates stars for your passive damage, replaces Combust (20 second cooldown on the GCD with 2 charges)
- Gravity, under certain conditions applies a 5% damage mitigation debuff. The Potency would be increased to match Malefic's with 50% dropoff, but costs MP. Not entirely sold on how to trigger this at the moment.
- Premonition, standard step sized AoE cooldown that puts a debuff on enemies that deals Malefic potency to them when you cast Celestial Opposition, or something similar to that.

But all of this is just one take on the idea. There are countless ways you could interpret the concept of a healer who disguises their DPS as support, and I firmly believe that's a niche AST should fill, both because it's a design niche that none of the other healers have ever filled and offers a starkly different playstyle which is a good thing, and also because, while I disagree on principle with players who have actively fought against DPS on the healer role, I do sympathize with players who do not like DPSing for 80%-100% of their GCD, regardless of whether that's 1 button, or a full rotation, and believe they deserve a healer that appeals to their fantasy. It is something that can be achieved, and while harder to conceptualize, is worth the effort.

[ASkellington]

snip

Aside from feeling clunky, one major draw back I see to your idea of cards on the GCD is it being tied to increased Malefic potency.

Cards now, are useless to be placed on an AST in solo content. I would even say in the old SB system they're just as useless outside of maybe Spire/Ewer. But my point is, to me it feels like I would be doing a GCD version of Astrodyne in solo content, or NIN mudras, which, to me feel awful and I want nothing to do with.

I get that there is going to be no fix for AST being miserable in solo content no matter how you spin it, but this feels like it would be worse in some instances.

For group content which is what this is mostly more balanced around, again, I still don't want GCD cards. Part of why I like AST for all its faults is the weaving. With your GCD cards, you're removing it and instead replacing it with a system that seems to feel more unfun and more importantly - clunky.

[ty_taurus]

Aside from feeling clunky, one major draw back I see to your idea of cards on the GCD is it being tied to increased Malefic potency.

Cards now, are useless to be placed on an AST in solo content. I would even say in the old SB system they're just as useless outside of maybe Spire/Ewer. But my point is, to me it feels like I would be doing a GCD version of Astrodyne in solo content, or NIN mudras, which, to me feel awful and I want nothing to do with.

I get that there is going to be no fix for AST being miserable in solo content no matter how you spin it, but this feels like it would be worse in some instances.

For group content which is what this is mostly more balanced around, again, I still don't want GCD cards. Part of why I like AST for all its faults is the weaving. With your GCD cards, you're removing it and instead replacing it with a system that seems to feel more unfun and more importantly - clunky.

With the concept of stars that generate passive damage, I envision that the damage still stems from your stats, not the person you put the stars on in order to keep it balanced. So during solo burst windows after stacking buffs on yourself, you're actually getting double the effects of your cards since each GCD is effectively 2 hits while active. I actually think something like this would make AST a lot stronger for solo content, like deep dungeon solo. You'd have cards set up while walking around, then be able to burst enemies down as you engage with them.

[ForsakenRoe]

I wonder if the issue with GCD cards is how often (or not, as it is) we actually play them. Like, imagine for a second, if there was a system that used the deck of sixty. Every, say, 15s, you Draw a card from that minor deck (OGCD), and Play (GCD) it as a replacement for that particular Malefic. Would it feel 'less bad' if that GCD was more often, or would it be worse?

I did see a post a long time ago, of someone having an idea for something like this. Might even be you Taurus, since it involved 'star that is equal to Malefic potency' in a way. But it was a GCD that applied 5 stacks to an ally, that empower the next 5 Weaponskills or Spells with (potency value) extra damage, scaling off of the AST's stats instead of the target. With the example given, it was like, Malefic is 250, and these 5 stacks are 60 each, so totalling 300, making it a gain to use them over Malefic. Malefic would keep a place, as 'the thing you use when you can't apply more stacks' (4man content or solo for example). But is it 'more interesting' to change from 'cast Malefic on the boss' to 'rotate buff skill across 5 players', it'd be almost the same, just you have to keep retargetting who you're aiming at. Then again, it's undeniably a 'buff focused playstyle' so surely it'd appeal to those players who want to 'support' but without directly doing damage. And there'd presumably be ways to add extra 'stars' via other actions as a way to make them damage neutral

I'm not sure if you're aiming for 'AST blows buffs on self during downtime to prep more stars for when boss comes back after High Concept', I assume the CDs on things would discourage that kind of behavior

[ty_taurus]

I wonder if the issue with GCD cards is how often (or not, as it is) we actually play them. Like, imagine for a second, if there was a system that used the deck of sixty. Every, say, 15s, you Draw a card from that minor deck (OGCD), and Play (GCD) it as a replacement for that particular Malefic. Would it feel 'less bad' if that GCD was more often, or would it be worse?

I did see a post a long time ago, of someone having an idea for something like this. Might even be you Taurus, since it involved 'star that is equal to Malefic potency' in a way. But it was a GCD that applied 5 stacks to an ally, that empower the next 5 Weaponskills or Spells with (potency value) extra damage, scaling off of the AST's stats instead of the target. With the example given, it was like, Malefic is 250, and these 5 stacks are 60 each, so totalling 300, making it a gain to use them over Malefic. Malefic would keep a place, as 'the thing you use when you can't apply more stacks' (4man content or solo for example). But is it 'more interesting' to change from 'cast Malefic on the boss' to 'rotate buff skill across 5 players', it'd be almost the same, just you have to keep retargetting who you're aiming at. Then again, it's undeniably a 'buff focused playstyle' so surely it'd appeal to those players who want to 'support' but without directly doing damage. And there'd presumably be ways to add extra 'stars' via other actions as a way to make them damage neutral

I'm not sure if you're aiming for 'AST blows buffs on self during downtime to prep more stars for when boss comes back after High Concept', I assume the CDs on things would discourage that kind of behavior

Sounds like something someone else may have bounced off the idea. I think I remember someone doing that before. But I agree, the thing that keeps circling around in my mind on how to make it work is ensuring that you're using the cards often. You touched on the concept not so long ago when I brought up each card can only be used once per "hand" so you can just balance balance balance, and you'd have effects like:

Balance is a 5% damage buff
Spear is a 5% crit buff
Arrow is a 5% DH buff
Spire is a 5% Det buff

but if Bole and Ewer are supportive, those are only needed as much as the fight demands, which creates an issue even if the design enforces each card to be used once per rotation. I really want to move away from them all being a flat DPS buff, and even if they're different variations of damage, there's at least some nuance to that and certain jobs benefit more from certain types of buffs. There are definitely ways to make it work, but it's just really tricky to find the goldilocks answer. If I really dedicated a day to beating out the ideas, I'm sure I could figure something out, but at the end of the day, it's really just about communicating the general ideas.

[ASkellington]

With the concept of stars that generate passive damage, I envision that the damage still stems from your stats, not the person you put the stars on in order to keep it balanced. So during solo burst windows after stacking buffs on yourself, you're actually getting double the effects of your cards since each GCD is effectively 2 hits while active. I actually think something like this would make AST a lot stronger for solo content, like deep dungeon solo. You'd have cards set up while walking around, then be able to burst enemies down as you engage with them.

Point I was trying to make is like Astrodyne is now, I would be placing cards on myself to make use of extra damage in solo content. And again, not all the cards are useful for AST because they're meant to be useful for the party and not necessarily the individual. Meaning I will be playing cards just to have an extra damage buff in solo content... which doesn't feel good but again nothing that can be done. So point is moot I suppose.

All with it being on the GCD and... with a gameplay loop I can't see myself liking at all if I'm reading this right.

[ty_taurus]

Point I was trying to make is like Astrodyne is now, I would be placing cards on myself to make use of extra damage in solo content. And again, not all the cards are useful for AST because they're meant to be useful for the party and not necessarily the individual. Meaning I will be playing cards just to have an extra damage buff in solo content... which doesn't feel good but again nothing that can be done. So point is moot I suppose.

All with it being on the GCD and... with a gameplay loop I can't see myself liking at all if I'm reading this right.

I'm not saying everyone has to like the way I've outlined it, or that I've even done a good job outlining it. But I think the design concept is way to broad for someone to say with certain objectivity that every possible way it can be interpreted is something they will or will not like. I suppose except if someone just does not like buffs at all and has 0 interest in any potential playstyle that involves utilizing them. Or may I'm just doing a terrible job at trying to describe it and I'll need a fully-concepted kit in order to communicate it better.

[ASkellington]

I'm not saying everyone has to like the way I've outlined it, or that I've even done a good job outlining it. But I think the design concept is way to broad for someone to say with certain objectivity that every possible way it can be interpreted is something they will or will not like. I suppose except if someone just does not like buffs at all and has 0 interest in any potential playstyle that involves utilizing them. Or may I'm just doing a terrible job at trying to describe it and I'll need a fully-concepted kit in order to communicate it better.

Its more towards you want to connect the cards to damage (Malefic and this new skill that replaces Combust). And like I said when you mentioned the cards doing that for say Horoscope, no. As much as I would like for the cards to affect something instead of being off on its own, so far it hasn't worked. RR was probably the "best" iteration but still had issues. Divination? A better Astrodyne. Astrodyne? Trash. Plus again, GCD. No. Breaks up the monotony of Malefic spam, yes, does not sound fun or smooth to play.

Most of my engagement would come down to the buffs themselves and applying them in the ways I can best use them. That is what initially drew me to AST and is what I want to see come back. Kit interconnectivity could be in other areas, such as Synastry as I mentioned in another thread or your idea of more things to proc Horoscope or just even bringing back Noct Stance and making AST a stance dancer.

AST is still a buffing healer regardless and most of its damage is going to come from buffs themselves. But I personally am not looking for a GCD buffing healer and I don't think AST should suddenly turn into one.

[Szylver]

New Q&A, new healer question opportunity.

I'm tempted to ask in the plainest terms
"Can healers get more damage spells and astrologian cards returned to the stormblood version as a priority please?"

naturally this might not fly given the topic so second version of the question
"In all the healer job quests from A realm reborn to Endwalker Healers are taught to use damage spells and healing spells in both gameplay and lore. However shadowbringers removed too many damage spells and astrologian cards which were also tied to lore. Can these be returned as a priority?


I could always ask both I suppose

But everyone hated the old AST card system, because of the DPS loss. That's why it was changed to only add damage.