A summary of healer issues

[Jirah]

Three problems with this:

1) That's subjective, not objective. To many people, the experience gets objectively better as everyone gets better. In old style games, the reward for being a better healer was being a less stressed healer. That's still true today.

2) Not everyone who disagrees with your position is a new/less experienced player.

3) Even if we ignore both of the above - that's no reason to run people off by hitting them with a wall of salt when they come to the forums. Often you guys suggest that no one thinks like I do, as no one is here regularly posting on the forums from the position I am other than me. But every time someone does, they're met with a wall of bitter vet salt that's pretty grating to most people (it is to me, but despite what I'm called by the regular jaded vets, I have thicker skin and so stick around anyway). To most people, that's REALLY toxic and alienating, so they just leave. Having a toxic forum environment not only gives you a slanted view of what the playerbase actually wants, it's just a bad environment to cultivate in general, and creates a self-fulfilling "fact" of "No one disagrees with the echo chamber, because they aren't here in the echo chamber disagreeing", when said echo chamber is actively repelling dissenting voices from stepping into (or staying in) it.

1) One this is a none-argument saying its subjective, Once youve done higher end content you start to get bored with core content faster as it continuously fails to engage. It gets better after what level 15 but when u take ur first steps outside of core things never get better unless you do more hardcore content, healers suffering the worst of this fallacy of engagement. and two a less stressed healer is the worst playstyle basically doing 1-1-1-1 until GG. This is a fact unless some madman likes having the worst kit in the game and not doing the role they chose. three as horridly gatekeepery as it sounds coming from me new players must be seasoned in order to have a solid opinion on the true nature of the game to this extent. If everyones pitch was valid you'd have lv 50 SAm asking for a rework because their job is boring. Just doing the bare minimum of MSQ also doesnt warrant much insight to rebuttal, if anything they should agree more at least savage players have that sense of fun briefly. four, this is a MMO not a old style rpg where you can solo things without healing

2)This isnt really a argument but id love to see statistics on this one, whos to say really?

3)irrelevant, back to topic

change is required either by tangible kit or the backdrop of the instances

[Recon1o6]

Generally how quickly you get bored of healing in this game is directly correlated to the length of time till you either 1. get downed and notice the tank doesnt need you or 2. You notice you don't actually press your new healing buttons much.

[Renathras]

...

1) Is a statement of fact. You're stating a subjective opinion. You say what YOU feel as an absolute, but it isn't. "you start to get bored"; yes, you start to get bored. I've yet to get bored. We may have different thresholds, but a lot of people play the game, play Healers, and aren't bored, and have done higher end content and core content. Many of such people have been playing the game (and even older games) for a long time. I've been playing since ARR. I have "a solid opinion", it just isn't the same as your own. That's what "That's subjective, not objective" means. You are stating your feelings and opinion, which is perfectly fine. Your opinion is valid...for you. But it isn't universal and isn't what everyone else feels.

2) I'd love to see statistics everyone agrees with your position unless they're new/experienced? I've been playing since 2.3. I've been doing Extremes since HW. I've been doing Exploration content since HW. I've done Savages since ShB, and early (week 2-3) Savages since 6.0. Unless you're going to say Extremes aren't hard content or Savages don't count, then my position is one person who disagrees with your position and isn't a new/less experienced player, meaning my mere existence disproves your position being universal.

3) Absolutely relevant - you're literally creating a toxic, abrasive environment that is running people off. That's bad no matter what the topic is. Worse, it's often used as proof that you're right - that no one (or only one person) is disagreeing with you, when you're actively running off anyone else who does so. That's highly important to the topic. I get you'd be quick to want that not to be mentioned, because of how bad it makes things look here - but they actually ARE that bad. There's a reason there are few dissenting voices here to your position and that there aren't a lot of happy, enthusiastic people posting here. Part is because happy, enthusiastic people are often playing the game and having fun, not posting about it on forums, but the other part is how toxic and abrasive this forum has become from the regulars to people who are happy with the way things are right now. You not wanting your dirty laundry aired doesn't make it irrelevant to do when it happens.

Change isn't "required" - the game is hugely popular and has a stable population. Change is "desired" by a portion of the population. THAT is a fact, yes.

[Rilifane]

I'm curious why ty's post is considered a wall of salt.
Just because a poster decided to delete their post with "meh"? You do realize that sometimes people are just sensitive and don't act in a mature way and someone else instantly back-paddling or maybe even taking it personal doesn't mean it was a personal insult. And statements like "I'm just dumb and don't understand it" is something that could be a pointer that someone already came in with insecurities.

Ty simply stated that it comes down to mastery, the better you get at healing, the less you panic and feel you need to heal. Which is true. There is no salt or insult in this, it's simply a fact. The first time you see HP bars dropping, you may panic and instantly heal everyone to full. Probably also after the 4th and 5th time but there comes a day when you saw the damage pattern, know it's not urgent and calmly go about your business.
It's not arrogant or salty to say that you have reached a certain level of gameplay where damage just isn't threatening.
And stating that it's important that a role is approachable for novice healers is the opposite of what you accuse them of and there is nothing salty or wrong about wanting to keep that while still giving people that reached higher levels of gameplay more room for improvement without forcing it on novice healers.

If someone feels like they got insulted, chased off or hit with a wall of salt by a pretty professional and neutral explaination why many vet healers are so bored with the role then that is not on the poster but on them. There wasn't a single insult, passive-aggressiveness, disingenuity, salt, accusation or anything that could be interpreted as putting someone down or wanting to ruin their experience.
Would you have really thought they got "chased off by a wall of salt" if it was someone else posting it than ty?

They said they don't understand the issue, ty tried to explain it. What were they supposed to say?
"Glad you're having fun, keep enjoying it! I'll not explain our issues to spare your feelings"?

[ty_taurus]

The original poster took down their post before I finished writing mine. It was already gone when I posted, so it wasn't even a reaction to what I wrote.

For the record, I have no problems deleting the quote from the poster if they ask. It seemed more like they decided it wasn't worth engaging in the discussion given the "meh" left over.

[Recon1o6]

From what I read of that poster, it seemed they wanted to say something related to healer jobs being rightfully seen as awful by long term healers but wasn't sure what point they were trying to make.
I've done it myself in a couple of renathras' spammed threads. Was about to make a point but decided it wasnt worth it and didn't bother posting for various reasons.

I disagree with Ty on a few things, but his reply here wasnt one of them. There's enough healers here to call him out for being a dick or be wrong if either were the case since he's one of the more mild mannered folk here and tends to provide evidence where required.

[ty_taurus]

From what I read of that poster, it seemed they wanted to say something related to healer jobs being rightfully seen as awful by long term healers but wasn't sure what point they were trying to make.
I've done it myself in a couple of renathras' spammed threads. Was about to make a point but decided it wasnt worth it and didn't bother posting for various reasons.

I disagree with Ty on a few things, but his reply here wasnt one of them. There's enough healers here to call him out for being a dick or be wrong if either were the case since he's one of the more mild mannered folk here and tends to provide evidence where required.

That could be a nice change of pace conversation to dive into. What parts do you disagree with?

[Sebazy]

Change isn't "required" - the game is hugely popular and has a stable population. Change is "desired" by a portion of the population. THAT is a fact, yes.

I disagree.

Strongly.

My sources and reasoning? Whilst I'm not really world prog material myself, I've raided with and covered for a very significant chunk of the EU's absolute best healers. Raided for Solitude, Exordium, Angered and Entropy, all top flight world race FCs with world firsts ahoy. Go back to BCOB and I regularly chatted with and knew just every hardcore healer on Ragnarok.

I don't know a single healer from back in the day that still raids regularly to this day. The few that do still play at all just do clears then go on hiatus until the next Savage/Ultimate patch release.

Savage content dies out and is abandoned faster than it ever has been in the past. Go back to Coil and in Solitude we had 2-3 groups clearing week in, week out without fail. People would get shuffled between groups and the 'dead' time leading into the next raid tier was just as active as the first few weeks of prog as groups were organised and teams got prepared. Compare it to now and it feels like hardcore FCs are graveyards 8 weeks after each content release now as there's no desire to keep on clearing.

The game is still riding on Shadowbringer's success and momentum but it's population is anything but stable, have you not noticed how it feels like pre expansion blues mere weeks after each content drop now?

It's not that we're getting less content as we're clearly not. SE are throwing more variety of side content than ever at us and that's fine. But core content has suffered from following the same recipe almost to a T since Creator. Thus we chew through it faster than ever and get bored of it because we know what to expect and we've seen it many times before.

IMHO unless the next expansion comes out to Shadowbringers level acclaim and hype, they need to deliver on the core gameplay loop and try to make things fresh again or the game's decline is going to continue to become more noticeable from the top down. The current conveyer belt of getting new players faster than old players quit isn't going to last forever.

[Recon1o6]

That could be a nice change of pace conversation to dive into. What parts do you disagree with?

Astrologian mainly. For example, in another thread you brought up Sage being very challenging sharlayan discipline and astro be on the simpler side due to cards.

In case you forgot, Astrologian too, is a challenging sharlayan discipline. The "easy" version of it is the one ishgard uses which is concerned only with the dragonstar.


Sage's challenge should be from managing eukrasia if we were to stick to lore. The other reason its tricky is just how tricky nouliths are to use. Meanwhile Astro's challenge in lore comes from its spells (time dilation for example) and the fact you need to be good at both physics and observing/interpretating natural phenomena. Especially now one of your primary reference points dropped on etheirys


reallyy though no healer has an excuse in lore to not have a high skill ceiling

[ty_taurus]

Astrologian mainly. For example, in another thread you brought up Sage being very challenging sharlayan discipline and astro be on the simpler side due to cards.

In case you forgot, Astrologian too, is a challenging sharlayan discipline. The "easy" version of it is the one ishgard uses which is concerned only with the dragonstar.


Sage's challenge should be from managing eukrasia if we were to stick to lore. The other reason its tricky is just how tricky nouliths are to use. Meanwhile Astro's challenge in lore comes from its spells (time dilation for example) and the fact you need to be good at both physics and observing/interpretating natural phenomena. Especially now one of your primary reference points dropped on etheirys


reallyy though no healer has an excuse in lore to not have a high skill ceiling

Oh, I don't necessarily believe AST should be simple per say, but rather designed to appeal to players who want a more support-focused playstyle by having their GCD rotation involve setting up and activating their buffs, and in order to both function in solo content (and be fun) and to stay competitive with the other healers, the act of setting up and detonating these buffs would generate a stacking resource. When you attack, one is consumed to deal Malefic potency damage, and you can also pass these stacks over to other players to detonate for you. In solo play, you'd have a rotation of setting up your own buffs, then quickly bursting down enemies with effectively double potency Malefics. I do believe every healer should have room for optimization.