A summary of healer issues

[ASkellington]

Calling the pvp kits shallow is inaccurate. I think it's more appropriate to call them condensed, because they aren't taking 20 buttons to do what 8 can.

I would still call them shallow. There isn't enough in the PvP kits to make good PvE classes. You're still going to have to add more buttons.

Just because GW2 can do it doesn't mean FFXIV feasibly can. GW2 was built upon the idea of having ~5 buttons (times that by 4 for Elementalist) because on top of that, they also have weapons that do different skills AND a weapon swap (with added customization from the other 5 or so skills that you gain from your class/race). ESO was pretty much the same.

FFXIV was NOT built on that design. Its design is closer to WoW and Rift. There is no way you're gonna condense a kit all the way to ~8 buttons. Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of 15-20.

Further, not everyone wants condensed skills. In 6.0 GNB's Continuation got condensed to 1 button. Kudos to those who wanted it that way, but I sure as all seven hells did not. And there is no way for me to change it back. (Thank you SE btw for screwing up my muscle memory!).

[ForsakenRoe]

In 6.0 GNB's Continuation got condensed to 1 button. Kudos to those who wanted it that way, but I sure as all seven hells did not. And there is no way for me to change it back. (Thank you SE btw for screwing up my muscle memory!).

I ended up just putting a duplicate button of Burst Strike where the 3rd hit of the combo used to be, and Double Down where the second hit used to be =( Also on the subject, I've heard people complained about how Hypervelocity makes it really annoying to weave mitigations, and also made it hard to move the boss using Burst Strike as a filler (which is now slightly fixed by the Continuation range change), and I thought to myself 'How can we make this fixed', and it seemed so simple:

-Move Double Down to 86
-Move Hypervelocity to 90
-Make Hypervelocity chain off of Double Down, change potency to 600 (since you only get one per minute now, this is to make up for the multiple burst strikes per minute, i estimated 3, adjust as needed)
alternatively make it lower and add a dot component to make it total the same
-Change Double Down to two hits of 600 potency, instead of one of 1200, to reduce crit variance (it'd now have two chances to crit)

How does SE keep making weird designs and then going 'wow i cant believe this design is kinda janky i wish someone could have told us', and why do they keep adding so many big hits with four digit potency values? We know crit variance is a big issue so why do we need 1200 potency this, 1000 potency that, back in my day we saw Carve and Spit was 450 and we thought 'what the heck that's so much' now 450 is 'tickles the enemy's feet a bit' weak

[ty_taurus]

I would still call them shallow. There isn't enough in the PvP kits to make good PvE classes. You're still going to have to add more buttons.

Just because GW2 can do it doesn't mean FFXIV feasibly can. GW2 was built upon the idea of having ~5 buttons (times that by 4 for Elementalist) because on top of that, they also have weapons that do different skills AND a weapon swap (with added customization from the other 5 or so skills that you gain from your class/race). ESO was pretty much the same.

FFXIV was NOT built on that design. Its design is closer to WoW and Rift. There is no way you're gonna condense a kit all the way to ~8 buttons. Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of 15-20.

Further, not everyone wants condensed skills. In 6.0 GNB's Continuation got condensed to 1 button. Kudos to those who wanted it that way, but I sure as all seven hells did not. And there is no way for me to change it back. (Thank you SE btw for screwing up my muscle memory!).

I think SGE's PVP kit is a ton of fun, but that's also because engages tend to end by the time I run out of non-Dosis based resources: Pneuma, Eukrasia, Toxikon charges, and Phlegmas. There really isn't much there, but because PVP is all about jumping into fast-paced engagements that end quite quickly, all or most of my charges are back up by the time I reengage. This isn't how PVE flows, and while Pneuma and Toxikon feels so much more fun to use in PVP and could realistically translate far better into PVE than something like WHM's Force of Nature or most other PVP job mechanics, I don't think that would really be enough to make PVE content fun enough. It would still need a bit more, because you spend much longer in a consistent state of combat. So PVE kits definitely need more actions to work with overall, but that doesn't mean a good PVE kit needs to be bloated either. We could reasonably have really engaging and exciting PVE kits in less actions than we currently use if they're better, thought that doesn't meant we should necessarily be afraid of having more actions either.

That said, healers have a big problem as well with having toolkits that have no real interactivity that allows for better button optimization or depth. WHM is not a bloated job in terms of numbers in comparison to other jobs, but... Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Medica II, Regen, Afflatus Solace, and Afflatus Rapture... There's a lot of unnecessary fluff in that pile and it could easily be consolidated to create something slimmer but also more cohesive, especially when building more tools into it.

[ASkellington]

I think SGE's PVP kit is a ton of fun, but that's also because engages tend to end by the time I run out of non-Dosis based resources: Pneuma, Eukrasia, Toxikon charges, and Phlegmas. There really isn't much there, but because PVP is all about jumping into fast-paced engagements that end quite quickly, all or most of my charges are back up by the time I reengage. This isn't how PVE flows, and while Pneuma and Toxikon feels so much more fun to use in PVP and could realistically translate far better into PVE than something like WHM's Force of Nature or most other PVP job mechanics, I don't think that would really be enough to make PVE content fun enough. It would still need a bit more, because you spend much longer in a consistent state of combat. So PVE kits definitely need more actions to work with overall, but that doesn't mean a good PVE kit needs to be bloated either. We could reasonably have really engaging and exciting PVE kits in less actions than we currently use if they're better, thought that doesn't meant we should necessarily be afraid of having more actions either.

That said, healers have a big problem as well with having toolkits that have no real interactivity that allows for better button optimization or depth. WHM is not a bloated job in terms of numbers in comparison to other jobs, but... Cure, Cure II, Cure III, Medica, Medica II, Regen, Afflatus Solace, and Afflatus Rapture... There's a lot of unnecessary fluff in that pile and it could easily be consolidated to create something slimmer but also more cohesive, especially when building more tools into it.

I mean I never said the kits couldn't be pruned. I'm just saying the pvp kits do not have enough buttons to cover PvE. You're gonna need more. And the minimum is likely to look like on the side of 15-20 buttons.

As far as PvP kits go, I don't want AST's without changes either. The cards are nice, but I hate how the dualcast for AST is set up. I would rather it be a toggle between Diurnal/Nocturnal or if I am forced to have dual cast, give me the shield FIRST. Never understood that either. In PvP I would want to mitigate the incoming hits first and then use the dual cast regen to restore while some hits are being mitigated.

I'd comment on the other healers, but I also haven't played PvP since the latest update. /shrug

[ty_taurus]

I mean I never said the kits couldn't be pruned. I'm just saying the pvp kits do not have enough buttons to cover PvE. You're gonna need more. And the minimum is likely to look like on the side of 15-20 buttons.

As far as PvP kits go, I don't want AST's without changes either. The cards are nice, but I hate how the dualcast for AST is set up. I would rather it be a toggle between Diurnal/Nocturnal or if I am forced to have dual cast, give me the shield FIRST. Never understood that either. In PvP I would want to mitigate the incoming hits first and then use the dual cast regen to restore while some hits are being mitigated.

I'd comment on the other healers, but I also haven't played PvP since the latest update. /shrug

It was the first half that was more inspired by your post. The second half about pruning was more just a general thought.