A summary of healer issues

[AmiableApkallu]

This is a very disingenuous take. You're siphoning every ounce of nuance out of the discussion and just writing it off as 'buttons.' Why have more buttons when you can have less? Why not just reduce every job down to 2 buttons: DPS get 1 Nuke and 1 DoT. Healers get 1 Nuke and 1 Heal, and Tanks get 1 Nuke and 1 Mitigation. That's just 2 buttons in what currently is in the ballpark of 30. Less buttons is better, right?

Obviously, that's an extreme and hyperbolic example, but you see how sophistic the argument becomes. You need to actually take into consideration what the buttons do rather than just writing them off as more buttons. And it's not just what to they do mechanically, but also what type of experience do they create for the player. The most important aspect of job design--one that is regularly forgotten--is what makes the experience fun and enjoyable, not just effective at clearing challenges the game throws at you. Phlegma may just be "more damage" for example, but the fact that it asks for melee range, and that it provides a flashy explosion dealing more damage makes it a more satisfying pop of serotonin. You may not feel that but most people would.

Too much time currently is spent spamming 1 button on all healers. A couple people may enjoy that, and most might not care much either way, but a significant chunk find it's detrimental to the experience and ruins healer gameplay because the downtime between healing makes the jobs feel like a chore and not a healthy experience.

Or put another way, the debate is about form, not function.

How the jobs function is determined by the game's combat design. Adding more DPS buttons will not decrease the amount of healing a healer has to do. Adding more heal buttons will not increase the amount of healing a healer has to do.

More buttons should equate to more decision, and anything that can be reduced should be reduced.

That doesn't really mean anything, though. If the question is, "What do I do now?", I can reduce the choices to:

- DPS: (1) Do damage.
- Tank: (1) Do damage. (2) Mitigate damage.
- Healer: (1) Do damage. (2) Mitigate damage. (3) Restore HP.

So, by itself, "anything that can be reduced should be reduced" is not a useful design principle.

The fun comes from the form the jobs take. Different forms is why we have BLM vs. SAM vs. …, or PLD vs. DRK vs. …, or WHM vs. SCH vs. …, even though, at the end of the day, they all have to get the same job done within their respective roles.

[Kabooa]

So, by itself, "anything that can be reduced should be reduced" is not a useful design principle.

I disagree.

I will point out reduce doesn't mean remove. Reducing button bloat doesn't mean we have to remove actions.

However, when adding actions, we shouldn't be adding them in a manner that increases button bloat. This way lies madness, because there is a hard limit to what is a reasonable expectation for individuals to be able to map and utilize. This is why keeping button count down but finding ways to increase action number and depth is important.

This is why if an action must take up a valuable button slot, it should be because it is a unique action that couldn't have been implemented in any other way - at least not yet.

It's why "anything that can be reduced should be reduced." is perfectly valid as a design principle. Weapon combos? Give the option for one button. Conditionals? Design a mechanic so that the conditional is as far reduced in key demand as possible.

Extraneous heal buttons? Sure, get rid of them. I'm hardly going to argue with any of the above, because the less bloat on our keybinds, the less likely we are to lose things moving forward, so maybe kit expansions get to feel like kit expansions instead of filling what was removed prior.

[AmiableApkallu]

I disagree.

I will point out reduce doesn't mean remove. Reducing button bloat doesn't mean we have to remove actions.

However, when adding actions, we shouldn't be adding them in a manner that increases button bloat. This way lies madness, because there is a hard limit to what is a reasonable expectation for individuals to be able to map and utilize. This is why keeping button count down but finding ways to increase action number and depth is important.

This is why if an action must take up a valuable button slot, it should be because it is a unique action that couldn't have been implemented in any other way - at least not yet.

That's all good and well, in theory, but in practice, a one-button DPS job satisfies everything you said just fine. After all, the only action a DPS job does is, "Deal damage."

What is the principle by which you let a DPS job get 20 buttons to "Deal damage", but somehow, a healer with 2 buttons to "Deal damage" has plenty?

[Kabooa]

Well I've been obnoxiously plastering theorycrafts in the Healer forums consistently over months and months and none of them have any sort of 123 filler combo. Just because other players have bad ideas doesn't mean that's what the bulk of us have been suggesting.

I don't see how what I said implies that.

That's all good and well, in theory, but in practice, a one-button DPS job satisfies everything you said just fine. After all, the only action a DPS job does is, "Deal damage."

What is the principle by which you let a DPS job get 20 buttons to "Deal damage", but somehow, a healer with 2 buttons to "Deal damage" has plenty?

None that I hold, personally.

I don't think Dragoon should have 9 gcds to have what is effectively two decision lines, nor do I think Gunbreaker should have stopped with the cartridge combo line, or that Warrior has some divine providence for Storm's Path to take 3 buttons, nor do I think Machinist is any richer for the Shot combo being 3 buttons. Monk would need to be more careful with how it does a consolidation, but that isn't because Monk abilities are special, it's because Monk progresses combos differently.

I've watched many potentially interesting abilities be removed over the years, yet these bog standard literal animation swapped skills get to be their own keys, and while some of them get trimmed, the fact is that none of them had to be removed to make room on the hot bar for the antiquated notion that Combos are special and need individual keys.

I don't think blasting zone is particularly interesting, and on a DPS it'd be one of the first actions up for removal, and I wouldn't care - On a DPS. On Gunbreaker, it routinely causes a conflict with what would be usual defensive timing. However, blasting zone isn't special - Quite literally any of the other offensive OGCDs exert the same pressure. Were it not for the rather iconic representation of a certain edgy boi's limit break, there'd be no reason for me to say it should stay. Continuation fulfills the same purpose, and you can expect that the level 92 skill for Gunbreaker is going to be Continuation for Fated Circle.

In practice, we create multiple damaging (RE: or of any type, really) actions in order to create what is effectively an in-game puzzle. We give them different cooldowns, different animation locks, different power, in order to create dynamic combat out of what is effectively just an auto-rolling turn based system. A caster will have long cast times for when it's safe to use them, fast cast times when looking for openings, and cool down instant casts in order to react to poor situations.

Healers are no different. They do deserve more damaging actions - And at the risk of being a meme, just "No, not like that."

I keep citing PVP because I think that's the best direction we should head in. We should minimize the bloat, we should ensure every button has a purpose, and for those who like hitting 6 different keys for their manual auto attacks, you give options that conserve key space for those who don't.

We stop taking things away in favor of systems that reduce the keybind pressure.

I don't think I'm being unfair in that perspective, nor do I think it's incompatible.

You want more damage buttons.

I want them to be meaningful.

[ty_taurus]

I don't see how what I said implies that.

Well, the initial post I was responding to, you mentioned what you like about 1 button DPS nuke + 1 DoT was that it didn't waste buttons. Whether or not this is how you perceive the situation or were trying to imply, it essentially comes across as "the good thing about what we have now is that we aren't wasting buttons on DPS." This implies that adding DPS is a waste of buttons, which I contested. That may very well not be how you feel, it's just how I took that statement.

After that, you mentioned in response to Semirhage that someone earlier was using tank 123 filler rotations as a comparison. My point is ultimately that this is irrelevant. Whether or not someone else is bringing up 123 filler as the "solution" doesn't meant that's what most of us are asking for when we talk about expanding on DPS actions. If you aren't writing off other discussions about DPS buttons as nothing but 123 filler, then why not clarify where the misunderstanding occurs?

I keep citing PVP because I think that's the best direction we should head in. We should minimize the bloat, we should ensure every button has a purpose, and for those who like hitting 6 different keys for their manual auto attacks, you give options that conserve key space for those who don't.

We stop taking things away in favor of systems that reduce the keybind pressure.

I don't think I'm being unfair in that perspective, nor do I think it's incompatible.

You want more damage buttons.

I want them to be meaningful.

I agree on some level, hence what I was saying earlier. Buttons need to be meaningful. That said, I would just add for clarification that PVP and PVE are not the same, and PVP toolkits can be a lot more shallow because they're built around regular, quick engages with unpredictable opponents whereas PVE encounters are very long, and involve consistent and predictable opponents. There is some overlap where we logic from one translates to logic of the other, but there is a reason why PVE toolkits have a lot more buttons.

To be fair, though, I do feel that a lot of jobs have a lot of unnecessary bloat. I really dislike the complete departmentalization of AoE buttons and having entire AoE rotations in a game that offers almost no AoE scenarios outside of FATEs and dungeon trash, for example, and would rather AoE rotations be built into your single target ones---i.e. having buttons like Afflatus Misery that just happen to be AoE but are still useful for single target, or providing a value in single target to AoE spells for healers, where the AoE spells are spammable for trash, but offer some type of utility or self-buffing for single target so they are still a part of the rotation.

[Kabooa]

That may very well not be how you feel, it's just how I took that statement.

If you aren't writing off other discussions about DPS buttons as nothing but 123 filler, then why not clarify where the misunderstanding occurs?

Right here.

The short answer is I don't think the fault lies at my feet, so it's not my responsibility to clear it up for you.

PVP toolkits can be a lot more shallow because they're built around regular, quick engages with unpredictable opponents whereas PVE encounters are very long, and involve consistent and predictable opponents

The only thing that has to be considered between PVE and PVP is whether or not the numerical scaling has to change.

Guild Wars 1 not only had extremely robust PVE kits consisting of 8 actions, nearly all of these actions were present in PVP, and only a relative handful of them required numerical adjustments.

Sleep obviously shouldn't last 30 seconds, Double Down shouldn't DCrit for 100% of a DPS's health, etc. Very little about FF14's PVE kits or PVP kits would be unable to be translated to the the other game mode and not work.

Calling the pvp kits shallow is inaccurate. I think it's more appropriate to call them condensed, because they aren't taking 20 buttons to do what 8 can.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think it's more appropriate to call them condensed, because they aren't taking 20 buttons to do what 8 can.

They dont fulfil the same jobs, because the objective is completely different in PVP. I can't keep my whole team alive in PVP as a WHM because that'd make it impossible to fight against any team with a healer, so my healing is limited to 2 casts of Cure 2, and a Cure 3 after Seraph Strike. Conversely, it's a PVP mode where 'do damage to beat the enemy players' is the goal, so we have more damage kit, Misery is a 15sec CD instead of needing to bother with lilies, I can polymorph people to lock them down, we have BIG LASER every 1 min to pressure or secure kills. You're right that if we moved the PVP kit into PVE it wouldnt work, but that is because the PVP kit isn't designed for PVE, it's designed for PVP. We did see once what PVE kits in PVP looked like, in HW. AST was actually an issue back then, as Noct shields meant it could move and shield itself. I survived against 3 DPS whacking me for far too long to be considered 'balanced' back then, when the Garo event first came out.

So yeh, I'd give credit to PVP kits for showing you can make the classes feel very distinct with few buttons. But we can't just transplant them wholesale, there does need to be some adjustments to make them work in PVE too. I can't imagine trying to do UCOB with PVP SGE for example, since it needs an enemy target to hit to apply it's shields, and the boss loves to leave for each trio in that fight.

[ASkellington]

Calling the pvp kits shallow is inaccurate. I think it's more appropriate to call them condensed, because they aren't taking 20 buttons to do what 8 can.

I would still call them shallow. There isn't enough in the PvP kits to make good PvE classes. You're still going to have to add more buttons.

Just because GW2 can do it doesn't mean FFXIV feasibly can. GW2 was built upon the idea of having ~5 buttons (times that by 4 for Elementalist) because on top of that, they also have weapons that do different skills AND a weapon swap (with added customization from the other 5 or so skills that you gain from your class/race). ESO was pretty much the same.

FFXIV was NOT built on that design. Its design is closer to WoW and Rift. There is no way you're gonna condense a kit all the way to ~8 buttons. Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of 15-20.

Further, not everyone wants condensed skills. In 6.0 GNB's Continuation got condensed to 1 button. Kudos to those who wanted it that way, but I sure as all seven hells did not. And there is no way for me to change it back. (Thank you SE btw for screwing up my muscle memory!).

[ForsakenRoe]

Also, as for tanks...
-> War filler is 2 combo + fell cleave
-> Drk filler is 1 combo + Bloodspiller + shadow edge
-> Gun filler is 1 combo + Burst strike + hypervelocity
PLD is a bit out here because is much more a full loop than a mix filler + burst option.

WAR is two combos which have to be decided between depending on whether you need to refresh the buff or not, Fellcleave which can be pooled for raidbuff windows, Onslaught charges which can be pooled vs used for mobility, Upheaval which is kinda just there admittedly, Infuriate charges which get refreshed by Fellcleaving, and can be pooled to change GCDs inside raidbuffs into Inner Chaos, Inner Release for an impactful raidbuff window rather than WHM's 'Glare but faster', Primal Rend which has to be thought about when to use it, because you want to put it in raidbuffs but you need to be cautious about it's forced gapclose effect

DRK has a filler combo, Bloodspiller which can be pooled, MP management in general (as shallow as it is now compared to old days) with making sure you have enough for a TBN if needed, purposely banking a Dark Arts charge for raidbuffs to get 5 Edge of Shadows inside buffs, changing priorities on when to use what based on targets (unleash>stalwart soul, spend on bloodspiller is a gain on 2, U>SS, spend on quietus is a gain on 3, used to be that Abyssal Drain was only a gain on 4). Shadowbringer, Living Shadow are kinda just 'press em in raidbuffs', but everything added together means DRK's raidbuff window is very busy, and means mitigating during a 2min window means having to potentially shift things around. Heck, there's been times I've gone into Delerium/Blood Weapon at high Blood, and not remembered until too late that Delerium's Bloodspillers don't cost blood, meaning the +10 per Blood Weapon hit overcapped me. My mistake to be sure, but it's still another small thing to consider, and a lot of small things to consider add up to make 'complexity'.

GNB is very on-rails, but it still has more than just burst strike. Keeping enough ammo for your next Gnashing Fang is not hard but it's still more than healers have. Pooling ammo to afford both GF and Double Down each 60s, keeping Blasting Zone on CD every 30s, putting Bow Shock and Sonic Break in No Mercy, even the existence of Continuation after each GF combo hit means you have to think more about your mitigation, as you cant double weave mitigations there (since one weave is the continuation hit). GF is also a gain on 2 targets over Fated Circle from what I hear, so there's some DRK-esque 'rotation changes depending on 1vs2vs3 target fights'.

Since these class's role is to tank, mitigating the boss's damage and positioning it is the 'primary job', 'doing damage' is as secondary to a tank as it is to a healer. Despite this, even with the 'simplest' of the options here, WAR, there are 10 buttons that are an important part of it's 'downtime rotation'. Heavy Swing, Maim, Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Infuriate, Fell Cleave, Inner Release, Primal Rend, Upheaval, Onslaught. Even if we remove Heavy Swing and Maim, so there are no combo actions, that's still 8 buttons. WHM has Glare, Dia, Misery, Presence of Mind, Assize. Only 5. SCH is Broil, Biolysis, Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Ruin 2 (lol), again 5 buttons. You could argue that 'oh but what about Dissipation for more stacks in opener, or Chain Stratagem for raidbuffs' but I'd argue the difference here is that you press those very rarely, 180s and 120s respectively. All of the WAR skills are, at maximum, 60s, so they're a lot more often. SGE is the worst offender, Dosis, Eukrasia, Phlegma, Toxicon. Wow, just four buttons!

This is part of the problem with trying to build a case for 'why healer downtime is boring', it's very easy to just jump to conclusions on things, like 'oh people want more buttons to press? clearly they want 123 and that's boring too'. As others have said, it's plenty easy to make a more engaging filler rotation without using 123 combos. For example Taurus has made ideas of their own. I've made a WHM idea that does nothing more than adding a new GCD to press once per 15 seconds, and rescaled the duration of the DOT from 30s down to 12s. I even attempted to demonstrate it here, using Bozja Actions. I made an idea for SGE that would add a single new button, and instead shift what spends your MP from the filler Dosis spam and GCD heals, to the augment spells like Soteria, Krasis, Zoe, meaning MP management would be the identity for SGE. Misrepresenting how simple/intricate tank rotations are doesn't help anyone. It's actually surprisingly fun to come up with ideas for new identities/skills/rotations for classes, and defaulting to 'well clearly the solution is to give healers a 123' is probably the first idea every one of us threw out the window because as everyone points out, there's no real difference between 123 and 111.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

snip about tanks' gameplay

Totally agree.

Thanks for explaining my last post in more words