A summary of healer issues

[ty_taurus]

I like that it doesn't waste 5-6 button slots on what is effectively the same decision.

This is a very disingenuous take. You're siphoning every ounce of nuance out of the discussion and just writing it off as 'buttons.' Why have more buttons when you can have less? Why not just reduce every job down to 2 buttons: DPS get 1 Nuke and 1 DoT. Healers get 1 Nuke and 1 Heal, and Tanks get 1 Nuke and 1 Mitigation. That's just 2 buttons in what currently is in the ballpark of 30. Less buttons is better, right?

Obviously, that's an extreme and hyperbolic example, but you see how sophistic the argument becomes. You need to actually take into consideration what the buttons do rather than just writing them off as more buttons. And it's not just what to they do mechanically, but also what type of experience do they create for the player. The most important aspect of job design--one that is regularly forgotten--is what makes the experience fun and enjoyable, not just effective at clearing challenges the game throws at you. Phlegma may just be "more damage" for example, but the fact that it asks for melee range, and that it provides a flashy explosion dealing more damage makes it a more satisfying pop of serotonin. You may not feel that but most people would.

Too much time currently is spent spamming 1 button on all healers. A couple people may enjoy that, and most might not care much either way, but a significant chunk find it's detrimental to the experience and ruins healer gameplay because the downtime between healing makes the jobs feel like a chore and not a healthy experience.

[Kabooa]

This is a very disingenuous take. You're siphoning every ounce of nuance out of the discussion..

More buttons should equate to more choices to consider, not bloating the bar to something that should be allowed the option of being reduced to just one button slot.

There's a reason PVP design doesn't worry about the bloat.

You want a contemporary example for PVE?

Dancer. Think about the way Standard and Tech Step actively reduce button bloat. Think about the ways it should further be reduced.

Gunbreaker and the Cartridge combo.

Summoner would actually be one of the best jobs to showcase this if the attuned abilities had more significant differences between them.

More buttons should equate to more decision, and anything that can be reduced should be reduced.

I am not against more buttons.

One of the MMOs I've played was vanilla Aion, where a singular class in that game sported something like 45 active skill binds, not counting linear combos with a far more robust system for button consolidation.

What I am against is just adding buttons because someone thinks 123 is way more engaging than 111.

[Semirhage]

This is a very disingenuous take. You're siphoning every ounce of nuance out of the discussion and just writing it off as 'buttons.' Why have more buttons when you can have less? Why not just reduce every job down to 2 buttons: DPS get 1 Nuke and 1 DoT. Healers get 1 Nuke and 1 Heal, and Tanks get 1 Nuke and 1 Mitigation. That's just 2 buttons in what currently is in the ballpark of 30. Less buttons is better, right?

Obviously, that's an extreme and hyperbolic example, but you see how sophistic the argument becomes. You need to actually take into consideration what the buttons do rather than just writing them off as more buttons. And it's not just what to they do mechanically, but also what type of experience do they create for the player. The most important aspect of job design--one that is regularly forgotten--is what makes the experience fun and enjoyable, not just effective at clearing challenges the game throws at you. Phlegma may just be "more damage" for example, but the fact that it asks for melee range, and that it provides a flashy explosion dealing more damage makes it a more satisfying pop of serotonin. You may not feel that but most people would.

Too much time currently is spent spamming 1 button on all healers. A couple people may enjoy that, and most might not care much either way, but a significant chunk find it's detrimental to the experience and ruins healer gameplay because the downtime between healing makes the jobs feel like a chore and not a healthy experience.

Kabooa responds to every instance of "I want more engaging downtime" with "You just want 123 combos which are boring." You can agree 123 combos are boring until the cows come home; it doesn't matter. "I want more engaging downtime" = "You just want 123 combos". Every time.

[Kabooa]

Kabooa responds to every instance of "I want more engaging downtime" with "You just want 123 combos which are boring." You can agree 123 combos are boring until the cows come home; it doesn't matter. "I want more engaging downtime" = "You just want 123 combos". Every time.

There, but a few posts earlier, the one I responded to, where the subject was using Tank 123 fillers as a point of comparison.

[Maltothoris]

The issue is that the 123 is our most realistic outcome still. Look at what they did to astro cards. You had choices, granted balance was still the best one , but you that, crit chance, attack speed, etc. They got rid of all of that.

[AmiableApkallu]

This is a very disingenuous take. You're siphoning every ounce of nuance out of the discussion and just writing it off as 'buttons.' Why have more buttons when you can have less? Why not just reduce every job down to 2 buttons: DPS get 1 Nuke and 1 DoT. Healers get 1 Nuke and 1 Heal, and Tanks get 1 Nuke and 1 Mitigation. That's just 2 buttons in what currently is in the ballpark of 30. Less buttons is better, right?

Obviously, that's an extreme and hyperbolic example, but you see how sophistic the argument becomes. You need to actually take into consideration what the buttons do rather than just writing them off as more buttons. And it's not just what to they do mechanically, but also what type of experience do they create for the player. The most important aspect of job design--one that is regularly forgotten--is what makes the experience fun and enjoyable, not just effective at clearing challenges the game throws at you. Phlegma may just be "more damage" for example, but the fact that it asks for melee range, and that it provides a flashy explosion dealing more damage makes it a more satisfying pop of serotonin. You may not feel that but most people would.

Too much time currently is spent spamming 1 button on all healers. A couple people may enjoy that, and most might not care much either way, but a significant chunk find it's detrimental to the experience and ruins healer gameplay because the downtime between healing makes the jobs feel like a chore and not a healthy experience.

Or put another way, the debate is about form, not function.

How the jobs function is determined by the game's combat design. Adding more DPS buttons will not decrease the amount of healing a healer has to do. Adding more heal buttons will not increase the amount of healing a healer has to do.

More buttons should equate to more decision, and anything that can be reduced should be reduced.

That doesn't really mean anything, though. If the question is, "What do I do now?", I can reduce the choices to:

- DPS: (1) Do damage.
- Tank: (1) Do damage. (2) Mitigate damage.
- Healer: (1) Do damage. (2) Mitigate damage. (3) Restore HP.

So, by itself, "anything that can be reduced should be reduced" is not a useful design principle.

The fun comes from the form the jobs take. Different forms is why we have BLM vs. SAM vs. …, or PLD vs. DRK vs. …, or WHM vs. SCH vs. …, even though, at the end of the day, they all have to get the same job done within their respective roles.

[Kabooa]

So, by itself, "anything that can be reduced should be reduced" is not a useful design principle.

I disagree.

I will point out reduce doesn't mean remove. Reducing button bloat doesn't mean we have to remove actions.

However, when adding actions, we shouldn't be adding them in a manner that increases button bloat. This way lies madness, because there is a hard limit to what is a reasonable expectation for individuals to be able to map and utilize. This is why keeping button count down but finding ways to increase action number and depth is important.

This is why if an action must take up a valuable button slot, it should be because it is a unique action that couldn't have been implemented in any other way - at least not yet.

It's why "anything that can be reduced should be reduced." is perfectly valid as a design principle. Weapon combos? Give the option for one button. Conditionals? Design a mechanic so that the conditional is as far reduced in key demand as possible.

Extraneous heal buttons? Sure, get rid of them. I'm hardly going to argue with any of the above, because the less bloat on our keybinds, the less likely we are to lose things moving forward, so maybe kit expansions get to feel like kit expansions instead of filling what was removed prior.

[ty_taurus]

The issue is that the 123 is our most realistic outcome still. Look at what they did to astro cards. You had choices, granted balance was still the best one , but you that, crit chance, attack speed, etc. They got rid of all of that.

I fail to see how that's true considering no caster has a 123 combo. RDM has a dynamic 12 combo that is constantly shifting, and I'll say I don't like 123 combos when they have no weight to them, like MCH who just presses them over and over, but well-designed combos have choice and consequence. I'd even rework the 123 combos for tanks if I could to make them more engaging.

There, but a few posts earlier, the one I responded to, where the subject was using Tank 123 fillers as a point of comparison.

Well I've been obnoxiously plastering theorycrafts in the Healer forums consistently over months and months and none of them have any sort of 123 filler combo. Just because other players have bad ideas doesn't mean that's what the bulk of us have been suggesting.

[AmiableApkallu]

I disagree.

I will point out reduce doesn't mean remove. Reducing button bloat doesn't mean we have to remove actions.

However, when adding actions, we shouldn't be adding them in a manner that increases button bloat. This way lies madness, because there is a hard limit to what is a reasonable expectation for individuals to be able to map and utilize. This is why keeping button count down but finding ways to increase action number and depth is important.

This is why if an action must take up a valuable button slot, it should be because it is a unique action that couldn't have been implemented in any other way - at least not yet.

That's all good and well, in theory, but in practice, a one-button DPS job satisfies everything you said just fine. After all, the only action a DPS job does is, "Deal damage."

What is the principle by which you let a DPS job get 20 buttons to "Deal damage", but somehow, a healer with 2 buttons to "Deal damage" has plenty?

[Kabooa]

Well I've been obnoxiously plastering theorycrafts in the Healer forums consistently over months and months and none of them have any sort of 123 filler combo. Just because other players have bad ideas doesn't mean that's what the bulk of us have been suggesting.

I don't see how what I said implies that.

That's all good and well, in theory, but in practice, a one-button DPS job satisfies everything you said just fine. After all, the only action a DPS job does is, "Deal damage."

What is the principle by which you let a DPS job get 20 buttons to "Deal damage", but somehow, a healer with 2 buttons to "Deal damage" has plenty?

None that I hold, personally.

I don't think Dragoon should have 9 gcds to have what is effectively two decision lines, nor do I think Gunbreaker should have stopped with the cartridge combo line, or that Warrior has some divine providence for Storm's Path to take 3 buttons, nor do I think Machinist is any richer for the Shot combo being 3 buttons. Monk would need to be more careful with how it does a consolidation, but that isn't because Monk abilities are special, it's because Monk progresses combos differently.

I've watched many potentially interesting abilities be removed over the years, yet these bog standard literal animation swapped skills get to be their own keys, and while some of them get trimmed, the fact is that none of them had to be removed to make room on the hot bar for the antiquated notion that Combos are special and need individual keys.

I don't think blasting zone is particularly interesting, and on a DPS it'd be one of the first actions up for removal, and I wouldn't care - On a DPS. On Gunbreaker, it routinely causes a conflict with what would be usual defensive timing. However, blasting zone isn't special - Quite literally any of the other offensive OGCDs exert the same pressure. Were it not for the rather iconic representation of a certain edgy boi's limit break, there'd be no reason for me to say it should stay. Continuation fulfills the same purpose, and you can expect that the level 92 skill for Gunbreaker is going to be Continuation for Fated Circle.

In practice, we create multiple damaging (RE: or of any type, really) actions in order to create what is effectively an in-game puzzle. We give them different cooldowns, different animation locks, different power, in order to create dynamic combat out of what is effectively just an auto-rolling turn based system. A caster will have long cast times for when it's safe to use them, fast cast times when looking for openings, and cool down instant casts in order to react to poor situations.

Healers are no different. They do deserve more damaging actions - And at the risk of being a meme, just "No, not like that."

I keep citing PVP because I think that's the best direction we should head in. We should minimize the bloat, we should ensure every button has a purpose, and for those who like hitting 6 different keys for their manual auto attacks, you give options that conserve key space for those who don't.

We stop taking things away in favor of systems that reduce the keybind pressure.

I don't think I'm being unfair in that perspective, nor do I think it's incompatible.

You want more damage buttons.

I want them to be meaningful.