A summary of healer issues

[Renathras]

And they're completely aware of this as they die, because the stasis didn't remove their ability to think, just their ability to live. Terrifying thought, right? But we don't get that represented, partially because morbid, mostly because it's very difficult to convey that concept via gameplay.

As is normal, disagree on most, but this reminds me of what I feel is honestly the most terrifying death in all of Bleach. When the crazy scientist minded Captain guy gives his "superhuman" potion to one of the Arancaars. It hyperboosts his PERCEPTION, but his body is unable to react or function with the signals his hyper-mind is giving. It makes every second last a thousand years, but he can't move or speak, only think, frozen in time. Miyuri mentions to him how he may not even be able to understand his words at this point, because he'd be hearing each syllable slowly over the course of a (perceived) thousand years. He stabs his sword at the guy who can lift his arm barely at that point, and the sword goes into his upraised palm. Miyuri notes how that must be an eternity of agony as he slowly pushes the sword towards the guy's eyeball. Being able to see it coming for 10s of thousands of years, yet unable to do anything, not even to scream except inside his head for eons.

...and I remember thinking, that's the single worst possible way to die.

Yeah, best we NOT do that. I prefer big holy burst of spiritual power/magic.

...

Quite a few flowers, which I think we already have too many of. The way she raises her back arm for Ray of Judgement IS kind of dainty and delicate (though this will be up to individual perception, I suppose), and her Faeries are quite a bit more feminine than even SCH's, being little pink fluttering things shooting the little light balls. I don't like DNC's animations or effects, so...

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

I do like Sorcerous Storm, though. Have that be an upgraded Assize and make the BLM's jealous. I prefer Asylum's animation to her Arcane Ward, though, too. Soul Drain is basically a reverse Ruin. Not sure that's worth going for, especially since WHM has no similar ability and it would step too close to Energy Drain.

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Anyway, I like most of WHM's current animations fine either way, and I was responding to the OP's 10 points. So...that's that.

[fulminating]

Yeah, best we NOT do that.

Isn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?

[Semirhage]

Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?

It's like you think people who actually know what they're talking about just make things up.

FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks.

[fulminating]

Does Chi Ten Jin count as a channelled ability? You're locked in place for the duration and possibly slightly before depending on how much you trust the servers.

[AnotherPerson]

Does Chi Ten Jin count as a channelled ability? You're locked in place for the duration and possibly slightly before depending on how much you trust the servers.

Yes, but not in the traditional sense. Ten Chi Jin also doesn't take into effect until you utilize the skills, but it can be seen as a way of channeling due to being locked in place and being unable to use any other skills other than what the "Channeled skill" provides as a result.

Another example of channeling is Leylines on BLM, but unlike Ten Chi Jin, Leylines isn't designed as a standalone channel ability. BLM is usually just casting at a 2.5 second GCD (excluding spell speed). After using leylines, Black mages are encouraged to continue "Channeling" their Fire IV rotation at level 60 for a flat 30 seconds within the small range of their circle as long as possible inside the leylines due to the lower cast time (a.k.a. soft-locked into place), but BLM can freely break off and move away from their leylines whenever possible and resume afterwards, giving it flexibility (and at higher levels, you can freely move between your leylines + get instant casts, giving the playstyle a lot more flexibility). BLM takes the whole channeling aspect as its foundational gameplay but on much shorter intervals.

The traditional standalone channeled abilities are skills like AST's Collective Unconscious. Collective Unconscious is not worth channeling over since you just need to snapshot the defensive buff + regen effect right before damage calculation. Any extra damage following that can be healed with Aspected Helios or other oGCD skills. The three cases of channeling Collective Unconscious:
1. To ensure everyone has been snapshotted with the buff. (Maybe 3 seconds longer in channeling for everyone to group up within range)
2. Continuously keep the defensive buff going because there's multiple instances of damage (ex: Euphrosyne 3rd boss phase transition) -- except at that point you have better healing skills at keeping players alive.
3. The supposed instance where you do want to channel is because channeling cost no MP and you're out of MP -- and this is definitely not the case for AST who has 3 potent sources of MP regeneration.

Not to mention, a standalone channeled ability can't do anything else but use that ability -- which often relegates it to a specific job in the toolkit. Again, in AST's case, if you want to channel it -- you can't be using any other skill or move to dodge mechanics, so the only time you channel is when there's a phase transition. Due to how overly abundant our healing toolkits are and how there's another specific "subrole" designed to work with mitigation (barrier healers), that's actually a huge negative to using a healing-channeled skill because there's so many other skills you can use together in the same duration to beat this channeled ability.

In casual play, damage is usually not high enough to warrant channeling Collective Unconscious -- not even mentioning all your other healing abilities, you have more value just using Aspected Helios or spamming Helios right after snapshotting the buff. In high-end play, DPS checks discourage channeling an ability that doesn't do damage if the damage doesn't outright kill you without needing the mitigation for a long period of time, but since you can't use your other healing skills or move either, it's also problematic to keeping people's HP up.

As a result, AST's Collective Unconscious use case is basically treated like Kerachole, just with a lower duration on the mitigation buff. In most cases, it's treated as an additional regen buff if you don't need the mitigation on snapshot to survive.

[ForsakenRoe]

People don't tend to think of that as Necromancer because it's not a Necromancer in the normal sense

The problem is, FFXIV's combat system is, yet again, too rigid for this to really work. They'd just be regular heals with or Kardia that just had a different aesthetic. If SGE was renamed Blood Mage and Dosis to Drain Life, but worked exactly as it does today, one could argue it was a Blood Mage/vampire healer. But it would mechanically be the same thing.

Thats... kinda the point. Contrast two announcements at fanfest, one is 'Hey we're doing Necromancer, it's a caster and it's focused on summoning many minions to do chip damage to your enemies' (like 80% of media shows Necro to be). The other is 'Hey, we're doing Necromancer, but in our own twist, we're making it a healer'. Nothing about it being a healer prevents it from summoning minions, but the fact it's not 'damage dealer Necro' sets it apart from the rest of the market. Of course, some people might not be too happy that they're forced to play healer to enjoy Necro, but the same happened with DRK, the same happened with BLU (everyone got screwed on that one), heck when it was first being teased I thought the best role for RDM would be Tank (mix of magic and melee, can equip chainmail in FFTA, etc)

For gameplay, I don't see how the engine is too rigid. Consider for example, it has a 123 called Soulsplit, Soulreap, Desecration (or something edgy like those). You use it, and it has the additional effect of 'Fills the Necro-whatever Gauge by X/Y/Z' for each step with the finisher doing more. You can then, once you have 'stolen' enough life energy via damage spells, use it on healing skills. If you know WOW stuff, Holy Paladin has Crusader Strike and Judgement, right? Both generate one Holy Power, and three HP can be spent on essentially Solace or Rapture (their AOE one is a cone though). So generate, say, 20 gauge (so you can pool up to 5 of these 'stolen heals') and have a ST heal and a cone heal (or a circle ala Rapture if you don't want positioning to matter as much)

IDK about calling something 'blood mage' either, it's kinda just... eh, as far as names go. Besides, it'd also imply it works specifically with blood, which some enemies (ghosts, spirits, zombies, skeletons, machina) don't have. Necromancer being able to manipulate life energies would at least explain the first four of those. Creative liberties would be needed to explain other things like machines I guess. But the point of using the name Necro is because it's a job from previous FF games (5remake mainly where it was 'BLU with a twist' basically), I don't recall a 'blood mage' in any games. And again 'Necromancy' has a much broader scope imo for what aesthetics it can do, whereas blood magic, if anything, sounds like a sub-school OF necromancy.

I have heard from little starbirds about forbidden techniques to allow your WHM to have a blood magic aesthetic, which can be found on a distant world called 'Youtube', IF SE let us have quests to unlock 'skillset glamours' eg a Nier themed SGE or an elemental GNB (lightning shot has actual lightning effects, burst strike looks more fiery, etc), or a 'redeemed DRK' that has light themed skills, a dark edgy WHM that uses these 'blood magic' animations I've heard about would be cool

Agreed with it needing to be the core of the rotation, though, as I said above myself. Tranquility is one of my favorite buttons in MMO history. Did they make it where it's not just your party? I think it was originally raidwide, then they nerfed it to just be your party, which was lame.

No, it's the whole raid, but if you're in a party (so, dungeons), it's healing per tick is doubled to compensate for the lack of 'extra targets' for it to hit. Same for Evoker's Rewind (Macrocosmos, but without the 'press to apply buff' part, it's just instant), and the Priest one I don't remember the name of (might be Divine Hymn, might be Symbol of Hope, it's one of the two). They only just, this expansion, gave the same treatment to Monk's Revival, can you believe that

[Renathras]

The other is 'Hey, we're doing Necromancer, but in our own twist, we're making it a healer'.

Right...but why call it Nercomancer at that point, if it's a Blood Mage? Why not call it Blood Mage and not run the risk of people MAYBE confusing/misunderstanding/thinking the game is promoting evil acts? It's kind of like going through a minefield when you could just walk to the side of it. Not to mention people have an image of what a Necromancer IS.

Now, you might say, "But what about SGE?"

While it IS true they didn't make SGE what it typically is (in the sense of a high level RDM without the melee), SGE has always been a capable healer and magic user in any FF games it's in. Its lore and abilities, basically a Greek doctor if they had access to magic and more advanced science, is fitting of a lowercase-S sage, a learned scholar. Moreover, unlike Necromancer, there aren't negative connotations with Sage. So it has none of the downsides of doing this.

Not to mention every time they've released a Job as something drastically different than what people expected, it didn't turn out well. DRK as a Tank was kind of iffy, DNC as a Ranged Physical DPS when everyone was expecting a Healer was one of the most negatively responded to things the Devs have ever done.

As for the mechanic - they could literally do the same thing with SGE right now. Just it's a healing gauge of some kind instead of a "stolen life/death magic" gauge. Blood Mage is no worse - how does a Necromancer do damage to a robot/machine enemy? Same kind of problem. How does a BLM do fire damage to a fire elemental instead of healing it? We just kinda allow for some things. They could do the Onimaijin (or whatever the spelling is) and have it be sapping spirit energy/aether and get the same result without having to step on the landmine of Necromancy.

Not a fain of death magic myself. It's a reason I play a healer.

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Also cool on Tranquility. I was thinking they has it party only for a while, which sucked because it was such a cool ability when it was raidwide.

EDIT:

Ok, I haven't checked the official forums in a long time. We have been trying to recruit for TOP now for a while and we can't get a healer. It is like they all disappeared. We are either stuck with a healer we have to prog previous tier with first or the few healers that are LF a group are HC or have already cleared TOP or at enrage or similar. Where the hell did all the healers go?

The irony is that everyone says Healers are ONLY fun in high end content (like TOP) and when progging, yet people refusing to do the thing that is the one thing they say is fun to do.

Though, to be fair, it may be a DC thing and that a lot of people who wanted to rush and do TOP already have groups/already have done so.

[Silver-Strider]

The irony is that everyone says Healers are ONLY fun in high end content (like TOP) and when progging, yet people refusing to do the thing that is the one thing they say is fun to do.

I don't really think fun is the right word for it honestly. High End content requires more interaction with our healing toolkits but whether that interaction can be labeled as "fun" is up for interpretation. What does it matter which of the 20+ healing abilities I decide to blow on the next Raidwide when the end result is the same? There's no procs I gain from using Earthly Star over CO, there's no resources to manage when a singular button press is all it takes to handle the bulk of my sustain, there's no buffs that I have to constantly maintain on the group with the only thing really to maintain being a singular DoT every 30s, so what exactly is "fun" about any of it?

If learning the fight is where the fun is, then you don't have to be a healer to learn the fight. Sure, there's healer specific mechanics but those are either heal everyone to full, or the increasingly rare Esuna X Debuff, with very, VERY little else needing to be learned about the fight from a mechanical standpoint. You could argue that you need to learn which CDs you should use for which moments but again, there is very little difference on what heal you use so long as you use a heal.

At the end of the day, whether it be a casual Expert Roulette run or the newest Ultimate Fight, Healers just aren't really worth playing.

[Renathras]

...but whether that interaction can be labeled as "fun" is up for interpretation.

Yeah, but this isn't just true in this case, it's true in all cases. Fun is always up for interpretation. Is DPSing on BLM fun? Interpretation decides that. Is WHM less fun than DNC? Is RDM more fun than WHM? Interpretation decides that, too. Are procs fun? Up to interpretation; some people love them, others hate them. Are DoTs fun? Interpretation. DPS buttons? Interpretation. Healing buttons? Interpretation. Is constantly maintaining buffs on the group fun? Interpretation. Healers "just aren't really worth playing"? DEFINITELY up for interpretation. A great many people seem to think they are.

But if people are saying "the only time I like Healers is X...but I refuse to do X", then it kind of causes my Spider Sense to tingle.

[Silver-Strider]

A great many people seem to think they are.

And yet here we are discussing why there aren't Healers doing Ultimates. So where is this "Great Many"? For someone so quick to call out everyone else for hyperbole, you seem very keen to do the same in your argument. For how limited the sample data from Ty's survey are, there seems to be an overwhelming number that support my claim on what is fun for a healer. They want more DPS actions, utility/support options that are NOT just another oGCD healing spell or any healing abilities at all for that matter. At least with other MMOs, Healers were given buffs to maintain or resources to manage but FFXIV can't be arsed to even give you that much to do.

Despite my enjoyment of doing Savage content, I stopped doing it because Healers are dogwater to play. I could go on my MNK and do those fights but I don't get that same level of enjoyment that I did when I was playing my healer back in the day. I'm sure other healers have similar reasons or have already cleared the fights and just have no interest in going back to them as a healer because the fun of learning the fight is gone. Hell, it could just be because we're in a content lull and everyone is just not logging in as often as they used to. Whatever the case may be, however, it's not going to really get any better if nothing is addressed but given Yoshi-P's response in the recent interviews, I am highly doubtful anything is going to change for the better.