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  1. #1
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma View Post
    Giving Healers additional damage options will create an expectation to use those damage options. I personally don't think that's a bad thing, since the average caliber of Healer skill and skill expression has gotten worse (and more dull) with each expansion... but expectation of Healer DPS is something SE has shown they specifically want to avoid. Adding 1 or 2 DPS options would be perfectly fine for the current iteration of healers. It was the previous iteration of healers that created the obvious "good" or "novice/bad" labeling. Using Cleric Stance effectively, Scholars keeping Shadowflare uptime, White Mages using Assize for DPS (back when it was either/or, not both).
    yeh, which is why I'd personally say SB was the best state for healing to be in, the DPS rotations had some meat to them still, but the annoying 'Cleric Stance locked me out of being able to actually heal' issue was resolved. I can understand why SE needed to get rid of that, it'd be like a tank being unable to use any mitigation for 5sec after swapping into their DPS stance like Sword Oath or Deliverance. But the removal of DPS actions to reduce us to 1 nuke, 1 heal has caused the problems we see now, and EW hasn't even 'made things worse', it's just been an extension of the SHB problem. IIRC, we were told in SHB there was going to be no new healer, so they could look at how to rebalance healer as a role. This was because AST was way more popular than WHM, and it was getting to the point where WHM was getting locked out of PFs. Well, SHB hit and we got this design, which honestly feels like a baseline kit to build off in the next expansion, so we gave it benefit of the doubt. EW hit and it's the same sh!t, different day, with 3 new healing tools for each healer, a new rank of 'nuke spell', and a 'new healer' that is 70% reskinned skills. We got told multiple times when raising concerns that we get more tools to heal with 'dont worry they'll add more damage to heal, you wont even have time to dps!' Then we got ZodEX which has been done with zero healers.

    The reason the 'discourse' is flaring up now, is people are realizing that giving SE the benefit of the doubt just means they see the data and go 'yeh nobody is complaining so clearly this is the right way to go!'. And with SMN now getting 'reset to a baseline kit, to build on in expansions', it's entirely possible that SE WONT actually build on it in later expansions, and leave it in it's current simple state. People are understandably worried about that possibility, so now there's mobilisation to make voices heard, to tell SE that we don't want classes that are boring to play. Unfortunately, healers have been in this state for 3 years now, and if there's no sign of it getting addressed in the FanFests and Media Tour, I can guarantee the healer shortage will get so, so much worse.

    Lastly, nobody gave a qiqirn's arse about whether someone used Assize for damage or healing in anything below Savage. Nobody cared whether you used ShadowFlare or SacredSoil in your EX roulette. In fact, a lot of people probably wouldn't SEE the ShadowFlare, because their 'other player's effects' setting is set to Limited or Off (like mine is). In fact, I'd argue it was EASIER to keep contributing 'some' damage as healer back in SB, as you had more of the pie chart of 'your damage' come from DOTs, on account of having more DOTs. So much of our power is now condensed into the nuke spell, whereas with multiple DOTs that nuke could afford to be a lower potency, and therefore less punishing to have to drop one or two of in a pinch.

    Quote Originally Posted by ty_taurus View Post
    Regardless of what they do or do not want to do, their current path is a terrible one that will eventually hit a breaking point, and they will need to address that. EW is showing cracks to a lot of players, and healers being badly designed is one of those cracks that is becoming more apparent to those outside of the circle. The healthiest thing they can do is realize how bad this sterilization tactic of healer gameplay is and change their mind. I think if nothing is really done to shake up the current status quo that EW has established come 7.0, there's going to be a lot of discourse. Healer design is not the only thing here, but job design as a whole is being brought into question.
    'Sterile' is the best way to put it. It's like, by playing with the light magic of WHM too much, the whole role has undergone the 'stasis' the lore implies Light causes, and now there's no 'life' left in the role lmao. Every bloody media tour, 'can healers have more to do in downtime' comes up as a question from several of the 'influencers', and so far it seems like it's had bugger all 'influence' on SE. If SE can't come up with any new fresh ideas for the role, I'd rather they just said so before FanFest (or at, but that would kill hype), and give the community a way to send in ideas. It's clear they don't read the non-JP forums, since they said they didn't hear Blood Weapon was an issue (it was talked about as an issue since SHB launch). Hearing they 'didn't really know what to do with Scholar' was also pretty sad, considering how many people have how many ideas on where to take the class. Crowdsource ideas for fixing the healer role, like they crowdsource Weapon and Gear designs with those contests. If there was a 'Healer Skills Redesign' contest, I'm sure most of us who have been throwing out ideas would put in the effort to make full Potency/CD balance additions to our pitches (I would for my WHM without hesitation, for example)
    (3)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 10-28-2022 at 04:32 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Maltothoris's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
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    743
    Character
    Malto Thoris
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    The issue is that the 123 is our most realistic outcome still. Look at what they did to astro cards. You had choices, granted balance was still the best one , but you that, crit chance, attack speed, etc. They got rid of all of that.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    ty_taurus's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,647
    Character
    Noah Orih
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Maltothoris View Post
    The issue is that the 123 is our most realistic outcome still. Look at what they did to astro cards. You had choices, granted balance was still the best one , but you that, crit chance, attack speed, etc. They got rid of all of that.
    I fail to see how that's true considering no caster has a 123 combo. RDM has a dynamic 12 combo that is constantly shifting, and I'll say I don't like 123 combos when they have no weight to them, like MCH who just presses them over and over, but well-designed combos have choice and consequence. I'd even rework the 123 combos for tanks if I could to make them more engaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabooa View Post
    There, but a few posts earlier, the one I responded to, where the subject was using Tank 123 fillers as a point of comparison.
    Well I've been obnoxiously plastering theorycrafts in the Healer forums consistently over months and months and none of them have any sort of 123 filler combo. Just because other players have bad ideas doesn't mean that's what the bulk of us have been suggesting.
    (3)

  4. #4
    Player
    Recon1o6's Avatar
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    Sep 2016
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    1,296
    Character
    Avarnia Corthal
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    a minor update today, added a line noting barbaricca and pandaemonium 7 savage as welcome amounts of healing.

    Another note I have thought about adding: there's no good tutorial for being a healer anymore other than the sage crash course since you can breeze through the healer job quests with ease


    I also had a strange encounter on msq roulette. A new healer that actually tried to dps. The fact I felt surprised at it made me think about this.
    The general skill level of healers is rock bottom since all the good ones have quit and the job quests are no longer appropriate.
    Sure you gt free loaders and sylphies that don't contribute but there is a portion of healers out there who don't do it because they don't have a clue as most stuff hits like wet noodles so the moment a fight with healing being required appears everything loses it
    (2)
    Last edited by Recon1o6; 11-10-2022 at 05:10 PM.

  5. #5
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Recon1o6 View Post
    a minor update today, added a line noting barbaricca and pandaemonium 7 savage as welcome amounts of healing.

    Another note I have thought about adding: there's no good tutorial for being a healer anymore other than the sage crash course since you can breeze through the healer job quests with ease


    I also had a strange encounter on msq roulette. A new healer that actually tried to dps. The fact I felt surprised at it made me think about this.
    The general skill level of healers is rock bottom since all the good ones have quit and the job quests are no longer appropriate.
    Sure you gt free loaders and sylphies that don't contribute but there is a portion of healers out there who don't do it because they don't have a clue as most stuff hits like wet noodles so the moment a fight with healing being required appears everything loses it
    'Fail to prepare, and you prepare to fail', since SE has prepared the healer playerbase for 'woefully low amounts of incoming damage' and not prepared them via a proper difficulty curve for 'oh okay this actually hurts quite a lot', once 'oof ouch owie the bleeds' happens many healers can't keep up, because it's such a jarring jump in required HPS. Also personally I'd agree that Barb is a good example of 'more healing' but P7S is not. For Barb they had healing required more often, which stretches our kit of OGCD tools because we only have so many to use before we run out and they're all on CD. Contrast with P7S, where the 'more healing needed' is just 'the raidwides also have a bleed after', we deal with them fairly similarly to how we would if they didn't have the bleed. I've said before, I think they should not have had the bleeds on raidwides, and instead made it so each of the Bough of Attis (the double fist slams at either the front or back) have proximity damage. This would make the fight have a fair few more raidwides that can't be fully covered by OGCDs. As SGE I can just dump Physis, Kerachole, Panhaima on the first raidwide bleed, and a WHM cohealer use lilybell on the second. Gear has trivialized that bleed damage, but the 'rate' of how 'often' raidwides happen would be unaffected. Maybe we'd go from the proximity damage of the suggested raidwides doing 80% in week 1, to 60% in BIS, but it's still gonna take at least one OGCD to sort out.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
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    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,956
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Me & my group still haven't cleared p7s yet (juuust 3rd harvest left, almost there!) and I think p7s would be nicer if they spread out the outgoing damage more evenly throughout the fight instead of designing the "nothing really happening" for first 60% of encounter then suddenly dumps loads and loads of things all at once near enrage. Or better yet, start low and slowly increase that incoming damage as party progress closer to enrage.

    I like that Bough of Attis slam doing proximity damage idea though.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Yep, you ask anyone 'which part of P7S has the hardest healing requirement' and it's not the bleedy raidwides, it's Inviolate Purgation (or Forbidden Fruit 6 as some call it, idk why). Stack and Spread effects four times, with two HEAVY raidwides, one after the second debuffs and one at the end, which needed a mit plan of their own to survive through in earlier weeks. No bleeds to be found, but it hits like a truck and requires the healers to think about when to use what tools, so they can heal while on the move. WHM for example would want to use regular Medicas or Cure3s while at the Stack/Spread locations, so they can use their Lilies to heal while running to the next spot. Braindead strat makes it easier to heal (we used to have to pause in the middle for heals before moving to the next spot lmao) but yeh you get my point
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Recon1o6's Avatar
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    Sep 2016
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    1,296
    Character
    Avarnia Corthal
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    in my defence, I have heard conflicting accounts of p7s. some say the damage is bursty, others spread out, but most say that it still hits a fair bit even when ilvl catches up

    I have not done any savage since p2s as I quit the game. I'm only around atm because I'm helping a friend who literally paid my sub so he had someone to do the msq with
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
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    Apr 2019
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    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Assuming the DPS and tanks are doing their mitigations right, the bleed on Spark of Life can be handled pretty easily with OGCDs, I've done it as WHM and SGE so I can't really say how AST or SCH handle the fight, but as SGE I just hit Physis, Kerachole, Panhaima and go back to shooting lasers. For WHM, the duration of the lilybell lines up pretty cleanly with the duration of the bleed, so that covers some of them too. Between P7S and P8S phase 2, to me it really feels like the dev team did all the testing on WHM SGE lmao

    Inviolate Purgation is the bit that needs some thinking on how to heal it, and it's good. But the bleeds on the raidwides are just kinda lazy imo. Almagest was cool when we first saw it, but that was 4 years ago
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Recon1o6's Avatar
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    Sep 2016
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    1,296
    Character
    Avarnia Corthal
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    I remember almagest. Raid buster maximus with an insane long last bleed. Was quite a surprise after the lackluster fights before it. Getting an aoe bole on that felt quite satisfying
    (1)

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