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  1. #1
    Player
    Deceptus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Goblet - 16th Ward, Plot 55
    Posts
    4,418
    Character
    Deceptus Keelon
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ASkellington View Post
    Ok. I'll bite.

    In Shb and EW as an AST I gained (healing abilities/augments only):

    Celestial Interestion
    +1 charge of Essential Dignity
    Horoscope
    Neutral Sect
    Exaltation
    +1 charge of CI
    Macrocosmos

    Now charges of CI and ED I do not need at all outside of W2W pulls or mess ups. Which, if I didn't have them, I'd dip into GCDs breaking up the monotony of Malefic spam.
    Macrocosmos and Horoscope I do not need when Earthly Star, Collective Unconciousness and Celestial Opposition can easily cover raid wides and I have ASPECTED HELIOS as a back up along with Helios.
    Exaltation is a better CI and I would rather CI be changed to something else or removed and it take its place because Exalt fits AST better thematically.

    Neutral Sect was ok when we still had Noct. We don't have it any more and I'll die on the hill the reason they thought it was ok to remove it instead of properly balance AST with it is because of its existence.

    The point is I can 100% heal just fine without these tools. Their excuse of "addressing mechanics" kinda falls flat. I can 100% address boss mechanics without these new tools. Its just harder to do so and takes extra thought which, HEY, IS WHAT WE WANT!
    Or as a WHM, Asylum has such a short CD that it can be used every single pull, same with Divine Benison

    When was the last time you actually used Liturgy / Temperance / Aquaveil in a dungeon? Hell the only reason I use Afflatus is between pulls to build up misery stacks

    Same with SCH.

    Fey union is pretty pointless, Seraph is too.
    (0)
    Veteran healers don't care if we need to heal, but right now we don't. We want interesting things to do during the downtime other than a 30s dot and a single filler spell that hasn't changed from lvl 4 to lvl 90.
    Dead DPS do no DPS. Raised DPS do 25/50% lower DPS. Do the mechanics and don't stand in bad stuff.
    Other games expect basic competence, FFXIV is pleasantly surprised by it. Other games have toxic elitism. FFXIV has toxic casualism.[/LIST]

  2. #2
    Player
    AFuzzyMu11in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    319
    Character
    Tiramisa Damsela
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptus View Post
    Or as a WHM, Asylum has such a short CD that it can be used every single pull, same with Divine Benison

    When was the last time you actually used Liturgy / Temperance / Aquaveil in a dungeon? Hell the only reason I use Afflatus is between pulls to build up misery stacks

    Same with SCH.

    Fey union is pretty pointless, Seraph is too.
    Fey union is actually amazing so is seraph both can be weaved with AOW, and fey union lets your tank soak up all the hate while u have to worry less about healing and can focus on dps to clear trash. This is just a bad take on sch.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    flowerfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Posts
    155
    Character
    Agnes Nimue
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in View Post
    Fey union is actually amazing so is seraph both can be weaved with AOW, and fey union lets your tank soak up all the hate while u have to worry less about healing and can focus on dps to clear trash. This is just a bad take on sch.
    Every heal can be weaved with AOW. Fey Union is really clunky. Seraph is meh, just another AoE heal.

    But I think the point of that comment was that Fey Union and Seraph are barely needed in dungeons at all. Whispering Dawn + Sacred Soil and Recitation Excog if the tank ran out of mits covers up about any damage in W2W pulls.
    (8)

  4. #4
    Player
    Recon1o6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    1,296
    Character
    Avarnia Corthal
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    snip
    please cite sources

    Points raised here need addressing and disproving
    1. No healer has buttons designed specifically to counter mechanics. We know this is false because that would enforce healers as mandatory picks (which SE correctly doesn't want) and make healers vital to clearing an encounter (which is sadly not true for 99% of the game)

    2. They can't replace older healing abilities. Again false, older fights hit harder and faster at their equivalencies. If the old ones cant be replaced, then replace the excess of new ones OR buff the new ones to cover said mechanics
    additionally, many healing buttons have no business sitting around being too weak or redundant. Cure 1, krasis, neutral sect and physick all come to mind

    3. Healers are split. Not so much, both sides wanted healers to heal more, but the dps group want something to do when they are not healing on top of that since yoshida was frightened for years of raising healing requirements to match earlier expansions

    4. More dps buttons mean healers would no longer be built for the game. This is blatantly untrue as healers spend 70-90% of their time dpsing.
    (5)

  5. #5
    Player
    Semirhage's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1,704
    Character
    Nemene Damendar
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    You can just tell when they don't know what to do for a healer, so they give it a copy of the skill the other healer has. Celestial Intersection being the AST answer to Divine Benison is one thing, but it's painfully obvious with a lot of Sage's kit, because not only does it function similarly, if not 100% identically to it's SCH counterpart, they're even learned at the exact same level. Ixo/Indom at 52, Pepsis/EmergencyTactics at 58, Physis/WhisperingDawn at 20, Holos/FeyBlessing at 76. It's so egregious, I used it as part of the logic of 'where should I put this Sage skill for my muscle memory' when the expansion first dropped.
    When I unlocked SGE to try it out, I just did /hotbar copy SCH 1 SGE 1 etc and replaced <exact same ability> with <exact same ability>. Muscle memory shifted about 10% maximum.
    (7)

  6. #6
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2,340
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Yeh, fair, I did play (main even) AST during HW, at least, from when I reached Ishgard (I think it was at the tail end of 3.2, so I missed the 'completely unusable in raids lmao' part) so Time Dilation and old COpp I do remember. And Disable, I miss that skill. Not Stella though (though the animation was cool I guess). At this point, if it meant getting the role a proper examination of issues, leading into a rework that saw all 4 current healers given very clear identities, and different gameplay feeling, I'd fairly comfortably accept not getting a new healer for the next 'healer's turn' at getting a new class announced at Fanfest (by my maths, 10.0). After all, we're in agreement, it'd probably be very similar to WHM in function, because it would be a pure healer (since SGE was a shield healer and we HAVE to alternate).

    Should note I miss the elemental stuff from WHM too, and they took that away (well, not really though cos Aquaveil is clearly water, it's in the name lmao), we're all no stranger to having identities removed and new ones hamfistedly thrust onto us. It's part of the reason part of me dreads FanFest time, if I see bloody Geomancer announced I'll be rather cross. If Mr Yoshi-P wants an idea for a new class in terms of aesthetics, I got one for Tank/Scouting (no it's not Corsair), I got a 'The Blue Mage is real!' system overhaul, I got ideas for all kinds of weird stuff that probably won't play nice with the engine. Like, if I could snap my fingers and the code magically works for whatever idea I have, first thing that's happening is BLU's getting remade into a real job, with the collectable spells as a side content it can choose to participate in (or not) like BRD with Performance. Actually, maybe BLU should be that 5th healer, that's how I used it in FF5 after all... heh heh
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player
    Fendred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    956
    Character
    Valentyne Laska
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    i think the best way to summarize the issue with healing is that it is impossible to deliver a consistent gameplay experience with healing as an active, GCD type role, so the devs get contradictory feedback. The experience is entirely different depending on the amount of healing required. Tank and DPS requests given to the developers are very consistent, whereas healer feedback is not as Yoshi-P has stated. So to satisfy players the experience must be consistent so that developers can get consistent feedback. That would require a complete rework of the healing system into a system with a standardized DPS rotation, a special kind of OGCD system for healers so that cast time doesn't interfere with it, auras, and auto heals. This would also require the simplification of healer toolkits, which would possibly lead to backwards compatibility issues on all content.

    Edit: Probably not as bad as the ARR rework, but still pretty big.

    On the other hand, part of what makes healers what they are is the ability to deal with the human element. There will always be some inconsistency no matter what system of healing we work under. So even if we tried to make it green DPS I don't think that would completely resolve it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Fendred; 10-27-2022 at 12:54 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    fulminating's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    1,179
    Character
    Wind-up Everyone
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 52
    Fey union would be better as a roused targeted whispering dawn, get rid of the stupid tether and trust the player to have put the faerie somewhere sensible. If it’s done with a player buff, they could even let it be spread with deployment tactics so that has more use cases. Or at least protraction. Give it some reason to be used in casual content outside of skipping cursed echo’s bleed.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    flowerfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2022
    Posts
    155
    Character
    Agnes Nimue
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendred View Post
    On the other hand, part of what makes healers what they are is the ability to deal with the human element. There will always be some inconsistency no matter what system of healing we work under. So even if we tried to make it green DPS I don't think that would completely resolve it.
    The way I see it, healers are already green DPS. Healing requirements are low enough that everything is recovered by one or two of the million heal oGCDs you have while you spam Glare away. In fact, healers are required to spam Glare to clear Savage. And that's the problem, spamming Glare is boring. I want more interesting DPS rotations because the healer kit is bloated with crap you aren't pressing for 70% of the fight. Of course though, a job like SCH would need a more thorough rework since a majority of its button bloat are ability heals that are unique, so clever button efficiency would need to be applied.

    As for human element, that's the nature of healing across any multiplayer game. In content where error is more tolerated (e.g. roulettes), perfect DPS output is not expected from anyone simply because there's no hard enrages in Normal content. An unexperienced healer would feel more uncomfortable the lower the HP of the party is, so they'll be throwing out more heal GCDs. They aren't being punished for not pressing their damage buttons. They can pick up their rotation again whenever they feel comfortable with the state of the party.

    Tl;dr Green DPS already exists. I just want Glarespam to be replaced with a more interesting rotation.
    (8)

  10. #10
    Player
    Sparkthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    535
    Character
    Kaenby Kaby
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    I don't think SE will affort any kind of DPS rotation for healer, as if GCD heal are poorly used at high level of gameplay, oGCD heal are all used and optimized. Having a decent DPS rotation would need more skill dedicated to DPS what would eat some space for healing oGCD. And it would also make the rôle scarier for new players.

    However, what would be nice i think is to have a better implication on group burst phase outside raid buff they get. WHM also already have presence of mind and afflatus misery, others could get something too.
    (0)

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