A summary of healer issues

[QooEr]

Agree on BLU. I like things like that. The thing is, they need to be GCDs with shortish (15-30 sec max) CDs. Otherwise we end up with Assize weaves. But the trick is also not to fill Jobs with needless button bloat. MCH, for example, has 4 "big CD" buttons, each a separate button...but you effectively use them on CD outside of some very niche optimization. Drill, Air Anchor, and the new sawblade one. They could honestly replace them with one button that cycles through each every 15-20 sec (this is literally how PvP MCH works) and nothing of value is lost other than unneeded hotbar bloat. So there's kind of a careful balance there.

i mean blue mage doesnt feel like that i think, as long as each gcd cd thingy has different cooldowns that dont line up perfectly it shouldnt be an issue. you can also prevent button bloat by making things do more than just 1 single thing. i quite like when buttons become other buttons situationally to combat button bloat but still keeping actions in the game.

I'm a bit confused what you mean by damage ceiling being closer without people complaining. I thought the point of making healer rotations more busy was so that people who are bored could be less bored, not to push people who enjoy simpler rotations out of being competitive/raise the skill ceiling?

its just pragmatics. even if i dont necessarily agree with said complaints i think its best to find a way to avoid them. i dont mind when more complex jobs are slightly worse than simple jobs, but theres usually a lot of complaining about balance when that happens. which eventually like you said leads to the current situation.
if theyre going to future proof that balance i think theyd have to give whm something, doesnt even need to be something too big imo. like maybe making using a lily heal reduce assize cd by X seconds in addition to charging the blood lily. whm would still play the same to pretty much everyone, but it would have a bit more going for it when optimizing, which in turn raises the ceiling without affecting the floor.

just to put into perspective how small the extra dps potential would be: the gap between highest dps and lowest dps healer is like 3-4%. if whm's extra *thing* raised its dps potential by even as little as 2%, it would actually be a huge deal for it to be competitive in speedkills and the like. and yet, the not-optimizers would not even care about such a tiny damage boost. this is what i think could be ideal, as that extra effort could deter a lot of the "why is babbys first healer better than mine!" complaints, while most of the "target audience" would probably not even notice it.

Yeah, a bit of nuance isn't bad. But as I say, if we give players that with 3 Jobs, why must we with all 4? Especially if 1-2 of said Jobs are going to be a good bit more complex than they are now?

i guess theres also people that just like to get better at their own job, and wouldnt want to "graduate" from whm once they got too good. idk. like i said i think it would be best if whms nuance was subtle enough that most people wouldnt care about it, except for only those who really want to push whms limits. i see it as a win-win if executed right

[Renathras]

...

To the first: I also like when buttons pull double duty. Gives us more abilities without making us need a dozen hotbars to use them all. I'm not sure if things not lining up is a good thing or a bad thing, honestly. The more things line up, the more generally manageable it is and the more things line up with the 2 minute window (which is what seems to be the design objective at present). For example, my biggest complaint on GNB is that Bloodfest's CD lines up with literally nothing else other than (SORTA) every third Gnashing. Which doesn't really feel good at all.

To the second: I mean, if we want to carry through on that, why stop there? Why not just go ahead and leave all the Jobs just as they are today to prevent that complaint in the first place? Sarcasm aside, I don't think WHM needs anything to "prevent" that. People are literally going to complain about anything. I saw a complaint thread in here a few days ago about someone not liking Sage's combat stance, and in the discussion, some people mentioned they don't like its Sprint animation (which it shares with PUG/MNK). People are ALWAYS going to complain about SOMEthing. I think when they consider the solution is "things as they were in ShB/EW", it'll silence most of those complaints. We needn't make the ONE Job we're keeping simple more complex to satisfy the people that will, at that point, have exclusive claim to ALL THE OTHER THREE Healing Jobs, I don't think. Again, is the objective to allow bored people to have options for Jobs to play and be less bored, or is it to force everyone along for that ride? The first I will support, the second I will not, and I'm hardly alone.

To the third: If they didn't want to "graduate", then they wouldn't have a problem with it staying easy, would they? And if they didn't like it being easy, they'd "graduate" on to one of the others. I get what you're saying - some people might decide they really love WHM and want more to do on it, specifically. But you have to understand the contra position is that the people who like simple are already having THREE Jobs robbed from them, and you're insisting they also give up the fourth. Can you see how that wouldn't go over well? It's not a win-win. It's a win-win-win-partialwin for the people complaining now and a lose-lose-lose-semilose for the people who love healing as it is right now. See how that's a problem?

EDIT: And for clarity, remember that many people who like simple playstyles are already playing some of those other Healing Jobs. You're asking them to not only give up the Jobs they love, but entirely give up the playstyle they love as well by not allowing them even ONE option that they can enjoy. I feel like that's not a viable solution nor is it a compromise position. Granted, the Devs probably aren't going to change ANY of them, but we'll see closer to 7.0, I suppose.

[glamazon]

What gets me is that this guy has come up with plausible simple design changes that they could implement for the better…

https://m.youtube.com/c/Sarixis/videos

I wish it was in Japanese so that they would pay attention to it. I fear these forums are basically irrelevant because it’s in English.

[QooEr]

I'm not sure if things not lining up is a good thing or a bad thing, honestly.

preference thing. if i have 3 cooldowns that line up perfectly, i might as well have 1 cooldown that you press 3 times in a row à la continuation. its why i dont like ninja too much; everything goes into trick attack, therefore assassinate etc just feel like hotbar bloat to me. instead when things Dont line up, i actually have to look at the cooldown timers. if you want them to line up every 2 minutes, you only gotta make sure its LCM is 120. but i digress.

To the second: [...] People are ALWAYS going to complain about SOMEthing. I think when they consider the solution is "things as they were in ShB/EW", it'll silence most of those complaints.

i know people will always have something to complain, but that shouldn't mean one ought to ignore every complaint. nothing will ever be perfect, and even if its perfect for one person, it wont be for someone else, but that doesnt mean you shouldn't at least try imo.
i do think the lessons of history could be good enough a deterrent though

That's not a win-win. It's a win-win-win-partialwin for the people complaining now and a lose-lose-lose-semilose for the people who love healing as it is right now. See how that's a problem?

thats why i proposed something that the vast majority of the "target audience" would not care about, or maybe even notice. the only context where 2% rdps matters is week 1 prog, speedkills and rank chasing in fflogs, and hardcore players are the last to complain about complexity.

a historical example of what i mean is how ShB whm was more complex than EW whm because of how annoying keeping gcd uptime was in 5.X. But i doubt the vast majority of people who liked whm because its simple even cared or noticed the amount of effort that went into keeping 100% gcd uptime back then.

would you feel like whm would be unenjoyably complex in my hypothetical where lilies also reduce the cd of assize by X seconds? the implication is that using lilies in downtime changes from a strict dps gain to a potential loss depending on the value of X and the amount of downtime. that would change optimal lily usage depending on fight and downtime. but i doubt the majority of players would care or even notice that fact.

its only a win-win if the nuance a simple job has doesnt get in the way of normal play, but its absolutely doable.

[Renathras]

preference thing. if i have 3 cooldowns that line up perfectly, i might as well have 1 cooldown that you press 3 times in a row à la continuation. its why i dont like ninja too much; everything goes into trick attack, therefore assassinate etc just feel like hotbar bloat to me. instead when things Dont line up, i actually have to look at the cooldown timers. if you want them to line up every 2 minutes, you only gotta make sure its LCM is 120. but i digress.

Maybe. But the solution there is to have shorter CDs that are used more frequently (give the player more to do in the downtime/maintenance phase anyway) that also line up with the bigger CDs.

For example, take any 30 sec CDs. On GNB, Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone. They each have a 30 sec CD, so you can use them outside of your burst, justifying having a separate button. They can also, in theory, be held if there's some reason to do so (though there generally isn't outside of untargetable phases). But because thhe CD is 30 seconds, shorter than their 1 min burst, it means that not only do they get to use these fun abilities more often (to break up the monotony of the Job's "downtime" flow), but they also line up (unless you drift them) with your burst phase, allowing you to roll through them there as well to make your burst extra busy - which is a draw of the Job. Imagine if Gnasing Fang had a 90 second CD. That would just be...awkward.

Contrast with Bloodfest, which has a 90 second CD, which makes it clunky and janky. It lines up with every THIRD 1 min burst phase, and every 3rd (6 minute) 2 minute raid burst phase. It doesn't line up with Double Down. It BARELY lines up with Gnashing Fang (and this is more due to Gnashing Fang lining up with it as per the above paragraph, just every 3rd time instead of every other time), and it just often feels like a weird button to disrupt the flow of your rotation for no real enjoyment gain - burning some Burst Strikes to use BF without capping either cartridges or the BF CD is just clunky and not enjoyable. Something that WOULD make it fun to me is if it let you cast a Double Down every time you used it without triggering DD's cooldown. That would allow you to get DD use more often (which...I don't know why, I just love that ability - it's Fell Cleave for GNBs) while not pushing IT off of the 1 min cycle would probably be nicer, and it would give you some interesting options during the burst phases since you could potentially get a second Double Down in, which would just be wildly fun to me.

But as I said in that thread on the Damage Dealer forum in reply to that YouTube video: It's fine that some Jobs aren't for everyone. I'm kind of transitioning to WAR as my tank anyway. I like GNB, but I think WAR is more my speed if not my style...though Fell Cleave spam and Raw Intuition is also silly stupid fun. \

EDIT:

i know people will always have something to complain, but that shouldn't mean one ought to ignore every complaint. nothing will ever be perfect, and even if its perfect for one person, it wont be for someone else, but that doesnt mean you shouldn't at least try imo.
i do think the lessons of history could be good enough a deterrent though

I guess my issue is that if we go "these people are going to complain anyway", why make these sweeping changes for them in the first place? And if we DID give them EVERYthing they want, then you'd have EVERYONE ELSE (like me) complaining. So how is that an improvement?

No, I'd say leave WHM for us smooth brains and if the pro-complex complainers get complain-y, just remind them of ShB/EW and ask them to think REALLY hard if they want to go back or not.

thats why i proposed something that the vast majority of the "target audience" would not care about, or maybe even notice. the only context where 2% rdps matters is week 1 prog, speedkills and rank chasing in fflogs, and hardcore players are the last to complain about complexity.

Something I've learned in all my time playing MMOs for 2 decades now: People notice those changes. Hell, how much of the meta is DRIVEN by those changes? And how many people DOWNSTREAM from the meta (doing content where the meta doesn't even matter) believe that it does?

I remember running ZodEx in 6.0 and people telling me how WHM was broken and worthless, and I was like "Wait, what? It works just fine, it just does less damage than the others and will go OOM if there are long fights with no downtime." People running farm on an Extreme trial were worried because of WHM doing a bit less damage (maybe 1%) because Misery wasn't DPS neutral.

This is hardly unique. I remember some complaint about SAM (maybe?) not being good for a stretch in SB (it was fine, it just had less utility and its "selfish" nature didn't QUITE make up in damage for the lack of buffs), maybe something like 1-3% less damage. Yet people in PF for Extremes and such were denying spots to SAMs over this perception of it being weak or not viable.

Today, we have this same deal with people actively excluding MCH from PF and groups. MCH is, by the data, the weakest DPS Job by far...yet for all Extremes and in Savages, its lower contribution isn't sufficient to prevent clears, definitely not to prevent people playing it or finding groups. Yet the overall community position is that the Job is horrifically broken. I've even seen people say it's "griefing" or "trolling" to play it in parties. But in what world?

You know as well as I do that the downstream playerbase cares, even if there's zero reason for them to.

a historical example of what i mean is how ShB whm was more complex than EW whm because of how annoying keeping gcd uptime was in 5.X. But i doubt the vast majority of people who liked whm because its simple even cared or noticed the amount of effort that went into keeping 100% gcd uptime back then.

Not sure what you mean here, uptime is the same in EW as ShB. Unless you mean less weaving time because of Glare filing the GCD?

And if you DO mean that: I can assure you, that change was HIGHLY noticeable (and generally welcome)

would you feel like whm would be unenjoyably complex in my hypothetical where lilies also reduce the cd of assize by X seconds? the implication is that using lilies in downtime changes from a strict dps gain to a potential loss depending on the value of X and the amount of downtime. that would change optimal lily usage depending on fight and downtime. but i doubt the majority of players would care or even notice that fact.

That would probably be okay since all it does is make healing more powerful and everyone uses Assize on CD anyway. That wouldn't really add complexity, though: Getting Assize faster would be a DPS gain, so all it would mean is using Lilies in downtime would be even MORE of a DPS gain than it is now. This would just discourage cast GCD healing (mainly Medica 2)

[QooEr]

Not sure what you mean here, uptime is the same in EW as ShB. Unless you mean less weaving time because of Glare filing the GCD?

And if you DO mean that: I can assure you, that change was HIGHLY noticeable (and generally welcome)

i know the change felt welcome and was of course noticeable, but thats not my point. my point is this: if i had asked you how you felt about whm in shb, what would you have said? if i had asked you in stormblood, what would you had said? had the change to glare never happened, would you have thought whm desperately needed a 1.5s cast time on glare, or that it needed something like ruin ii? Did you stress over the lack of weave windows in shb, or did you just clip your gcd? did you plan out your lilies to get maximum value for mobility+double weave+healing? did you practice pre-positioning & try your hardest to slidecast on even the most movement heavy phases to keep 100% uptime?

just like the vast majority of whms in endwalker thought whm was totally fiiine despite having very obvious mana issues in longer fights (hint: its because they had bad gcd uptime), the vast majority of whm mains in shb did not in fact stress over gcd uptime and slidecasting, much less in any content lower than savage. you can call it jank or job depth but it was very real, and one of the main reasons lilies got so devalued in EW was because with the 1.5s cast times the go-to mobility & weaving tool (lilies) was no longer useful for any of that. thats why lossy afflatus misery was such a huge deal in EW but not in ShB. but i guarantee you that the majority of whms did not know all that, they probably just thought oh misery is a cool damage refund heehee blood for the blood lily.


switching to the healer i know best for more demonstration; giving 2 charges to draw had some very significant side effects on how AST plays cards. those of us who like theorycrafting and optimizing spotted it minutes after reading the media tour tooltips, while the vast majority of casual asts still use cards willy nilly. what giving charges to draw did was making it so it was optimal to hold 3 cards for raid buffs, making a change that would have probably been nice ("oh hey, i wont drift draw anymore!") into something that makes the entire job feel a lot worse ("oh great, now i have to cram like 6 ogcds into every divination window, meaning i have to hold lightspeed exclusively for burst and also largely ignore cards until the next repoener").

when i say they can add nuance to jobs that what you call "the downstream playerbase" would not notice, i absolutely mean it. its like... when sch could micromanage fairy embraces. it raised the skill ceiling incredibly, but having the fairy on autopilot was perfectly fine too for everyone who didnt want to do that. simple jobs can absolutely have things that seem simple or unnecessary but have more to it on a closer look.

That would probably be okay since all it does is make healing more powerful and everyone uses Assize on CD anyway. That wouldn't really add complexity, though: Getting Assize faster would be a DPS gain, so all it would mean is using Lilies in downtime would be even MORE of a DPS gain than it is now. This would just discourage cast GCD healing (mainly Medica 2)

if you burn lilies in downtime and reduce assize cd so much that you clip into the cooldown and lose uses of it, thats a damage loss. it absolutely would add more depth than "try to burn as many lilies in downtime as possible". you would also try to time lilies to manipulate the cd to fit assize into raid buffs, and thats just off the top of my head.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Hello again thread! Seen some few minor changes from the 6.2 note. No better time to bump up this megathread.

• Lilybell got a nice QoL imho. Not many instances of repetitive attacks that occurs within 15s, not even picking up DoT can guarantee detonating entire stacks.
• SCH Embrace and SGE Kardion is... 'eh'? Less annoyance for tanks I guess.
• SGE Holos reminds me of that feel of using oGCD shield as the old Noct AST. In practice, it'll probably just make SCH/SGE more powerful(?).
• AST redraw finally have -some- bad RNG mitigation? Yeah sure I'll take it. Still doesn't change my mind of how terrible Trashdyne is though. This feels like a bandaid overall.
• Crown Play being gone? Good riddance.
• The part where they mentioned about giving some ease to healer enmity management, mainly from Embrace, Kardion, and HoT ticks... I mean, do we really have any -enmity management- at all prior to this? Or perhaps they're doing this for the upcoming criterion dungeon?

What's your thoughts?

[Rilifane]

• Lilybell - a simple but good change. Lilybell is a strong cooldown, admittedly too strong for most situations but 20s paired with the ability to detonate it at will trivializes several mechanics. Even if it was able to cover an entire mechanic before with proper timing, ground targets sometimes still being a bit finnicky means you have more wiggle room for timing now.
• Minor Arcana - aboout time ... bringing it back was a mistake but at least it's not as annoying as before
• Redraw - in theory good, in practice near pointless as long as Astrodyne is as bad as it is. It would've been a godsend during ShB
• Holos - SGE seemed to have had trouble keeping up with SCH for shields/ mitigation in DSR? It's not bad, obviously but I don't have the experience with this content to judge whether it was necessary or not
• Regen enmity - if the reason were Criterion dungeons then seriously? The entire point of these dungeons is that you're supposed to be competent and not letting your healer get nuked from an Embrace includes that. Our enmity management was basically "don't stand out of tank range" and I suspect it has more to do about complaints in DF that regens on the run are baaad

Honorable mention to crit buffs increasing autocrit damage. Because SCH really needed a bump, it was so far behind in dps it barely stood a chance

[einschwartz]

[*]The part where they mentioned about giving some ease to healer enmity management, mainly from Embrace, Kardion, and HoT ticks... I mean, do we really have any -enmity management- at all prior to this? [/LIST]

While enmity management is practically none prior to this change, it's another few reason left we could tell new healers not to overheal... gone.
Let them all keep the Medica 2 uptime I guess.

[Liam_Harper]

What's your thoughts?

Fluff. A major patch and all healers really got are a few small QoL tweaks and nothings.