A summary of healer issues

[Roeshel]

The funny thing is that, in the past, Yoshi-P and his crew would vehemently disagree with you. At least according to a particular slide.

Then again, what room do I have to trust what they say and write anymore, considering where we are now.

If they really said that Fun > Balance they must have been joking. It is completely irrational statement to make for a game. Lack of balance leads to very frustrating situations. People in general don't have fun when there is no balance. It is only the very small minority who are going praise an unbalanced state of the game as something better than the more balanced state of the game. Boring gameplay is actually far less detrimental than the lack of balance. At least they got their priorities straight in Shb.

[Irenia]

If they really said that Fun > Balance they must have been joking. It is completely irrational statement to make for a game. Lack of balance leads to very frustrating situations. People in general don't have fun when there is no balance. It is only the very small minority who are going praise an unbalanced state of the game as something better than the more balanced state of the game. Boring gameplay is actually far less detrimental than the lack of balance. At least they got their priorities straight in Shb.

I disagree. Enjoyment is king, but balance, or lack thereof, can impact that. And for each person, the degree of this impact is different. This is the dilemma in game design; each person has their own criteria.

On the other hand, your statement reads odd to me; making it seem like you would rather play a balanced game you are lukewarm on than an unbalanced one you otherwise enjoy. After all, I would not spend any time on a game that I did not enjoy, even if it is the most balanced.

Did you mean your enjoyment comes mostly from balance? How do you feel about the game's need to add new jobs each expansion, since that mere act makes things less balanced? Don't mean to sound aggressive, it's just this idea is truly baffling me.

[Roeshel]

I disagree. Enjoyment is king, but balance, or lack thereof, can impact that. And for each person, the degree of this impact is different. This is the dilemma in game design; each person has their own criteria.

On the other hand, your statement reads odd to me; making it seem like you would rather play a balanced game you are lukewarm on than an unbalanced one you otherwise enjoy. After all, I would not spend any time on a game that I did not enjoy, even if it is the most balanced.

Did you mean your enjoyment comes mostly from balance? How do you feel about the game's need to add new jobs each expansion, since that mere act makes things less balanced? Don't mean to sound aggressive, it's just this idea is truly baffling me.

Games are business and what gets most people satisfied is king aka balance. Adding more jobs is not directly related to imbalance. GNB is a new job but that's finely balanced. The dmg dealt is roughly the same as the dmg of the other tank jobs so GNB is only adding variety to the tank class.

What I enjoy is having relevant DPS as a healer and SE is probably going to continue going in that direction. I don't like healing that much but I like the option of having access to heals.

I'm a healer that wants to be useful. Damage is useful. Overhealing is useless. Simple as that.

This makes the strongest damage dealers the most useful healers which is why healer's dps should be greater than that of a DPS and tanks. This is how the game operates and we are getting there. Healers in HS and SB were the weakest damage dealing class in the entire game. In Shb, we are surpassing tanks in raids not only in rDPS but with sheer DPS numbers as well with our 1 button spam. In Endwalker we will most probably be closing the gap in DPS numbers with actual DPS roles if they expand our DPS kit.

We are also getting a healer that augments their own offensive spells which makes them less of a support class and more of a DPS class that also happened to heal.

[Deceptus]

Games are business and what gets most people satisfied is king aka balance. Adding more jobs is not directly related to imbalance. GNB is a new job but that's finely balanced. The dmg dealt is roughly the same as the dmg of the other tank jobs so GNB is only adding variety to the tank class.

All the tanks are balanced as in each one is damn near a copy of each other. Are they fun? Maybe, maybe not

Same goes for healers right now.

[Sebazy]

GHealers in HS and SB were the weakest damage dealing class in the entire game.

It's worth noting that there's pretty important caveats to this. In single target healers were indeed a good way behind. But in AoE, healer DPS was seriously underestimated back then, laughably so at times.

At the very start of HW I could out AoE any DPS except a SMN in neverreap on Scholar pulling 1000dps+ on trash. In Stormblood I never figured a means to reach the same silly numbers but for the most part I'd be right there with a well played DPS' numbers on trash still routinely beating decent players if they weren't on a particularly strong AoE job.

Also keep in mind that it's very possible for them to add extra depth to our DPS without inflating the numbers by simply tuning the potency back down or even using the stat crunch as a means to camouflage how our damage scales with MND relative to DPS jobs and their mainstat.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I kinda disagree. I like to have another healer in raids because I'm not sure I know what I'm doing in most of them.

In the lower level ones I can get hit and still live, but the higher ones I might die and then I'd need another healer to help me.

I mean is it really the end of the day? Wipes means you have something you can learn and get better. Surely players are not staying incompetent from day 01 & never improve, aren’t they?

I also don't want to do damage. I want to do healing. Thats why I made a white mage first so I could do healing instead of damage.

Sylphie?

If ur a healer and want to do damage then I dunno they could make a job that does both better, but I just want to do healing.

Maybe they can make more damage so I can just do healing stuff. Ya the solo duty and quest was kinda long, but after my white mage I did a monk and it was so damn hard I gave up on it and didn't level it up until more than a year.

Sure. First SE needs to ramp up the incoming damage & add some randomness to encounter so that I can be more wary & actually use all these healing spells that I almost never press. That’s the least they can do to make me heal more alongside my co-healer.

Second, if they want to get rid of our damage spells, then get rid of damage requirement from our job quests…. Oops! Can’t do that either! We still have MSQ which are shared across all jobs! No dps means no clear! How I wish my Cure II can damage enemies now!?

Fun aside: I too, like healing. But effectively it’s a team game. Overheals doesn’t help my party; 1 extra Glare/Broil/Malefic does, and the more I can squeeze it in, the faster the encounter will end and the less healing -you-, my cohealer, need to throw out. Win-win, isn’t it?

I just want to do healing. Why are you telling them to make me do damage. Stop speaking for me I just want to do healing when I play a healer.

Yep, definitely Sylphie.
They are the reason why I deliberately leave most of the ‘lower lv raid/trials’ cohealer solo heal their way through. Sometimes even the ‘high lv ones’ . I.e. What am I supposed to do when they choose to overtop my Whispering Dawn with their Plenary-buffed Medica II + Asylums? Cast more Succor? Nah no. Next time raidwides happens I’ll just Broil away. They wanna heal? I’ll let them do that. I personally don’t like to play the ”Who gets to heal more!?”-game.

[Lyth]

Having every competent group run a mandatory WAR and SCH across three 'expansions' was far, far worse. You can forget copies, everyone literally was playing the same job. At least we currently get to choose the aesthetics that we like. That's progress.

[Irenia]

Games are business and what gets most people satisfied is king aka balance. Adding more jobs is not directly related to imbalance. GNB is a new job but that's finely balanced. The dmg dealt is roughly the same as the dmg of the other tank jobs so GNB is only adding variety to the tank class.

What I enjoy is having relevant DPS as a healer and SE is probably going to continue going in that direction. I don't like healing that much but I like the option of having access to heals.

You know... you just contradicted yourself.

Imagine the healers were rebalanced so that none of them could contribute an appreciable amount of damage in raids, yet have the same amount of downtime as they do now. Just give the people who don't like dealing damage everything they want in this regard. They would be balanced, yes, but by your own admission, you would not like this.

Therefore, Balance is not king. Something else is.

I'm not saying that balance isn't important. But it comes into play later, once a good foundation is set. Because while balance does nothing on its own, unbalance can kill enthusiasm, generally through community pressure in this game. But balancing without considering what brought people to your content in the first place can do the same.

[Roeshel]

You know... you just contradicted yourself.

Imagine the healers were rebalanced so that none of them could contribute an appreciable amount of damage in raids, yet have the same amount of downtime as they do now. Just give the people who don't like dealing damage everything they want in this regard. They would be balanced, yes, but by your own admission, you would not like this.

Therefore, Balance is not king. Something else is.

That's not balance. This is making one class equally useless in the game. Uselessness is not something balancing can bring. This is also the main reason why a healer's total DPS output is not more than that of an actual DPS job. This would have made DPS jobs completely useless, can't say that I don't prefer it that way, but it is unrealistic. It can only become a possibility when DPS jobs become something more than a class that deals damage. Currently, there is nothing that makes a DPS job valuable other than DPS. The only difference between a ranged melee and magical DPS is LB and aesthetics. Rotation is something you learn by heart and unlike healers, even if something goes wrong with your party members, you keep on DPS-ing because you have nothing else to do. The exception from this rule is the SMN because they can raise and the RDM because they can raise and heal.

[Irenia]

That's not balance. This is making one class equally useless in the game.

Exactly. Equally useless, therefore balanced.

It seems that we are using different definitions of "balance". I have a rather strict one, and it goes like this. Decide what quality you want to measure, and what objects you want to measure. Measure them, and compare the difference(s). The less of a difference there is, the more balanced they are in that respect. This entire time I was measuring "DPS" between "healer jobs". If the healer jobs all did 20 dps, that would be balanced. If they all did 3000 dps, that would also be balanced.

As such, let me clarify and repeat that dps balance amongst healers (or tanks, or dps) is important, but does not bring value on its own. You mention jobs being useful, which does bring value. Amusingly, this is done right now by making sure damage bewteen healers, tanks, and dps are unbalanced in favor of the DPS, which you agree is a good thing. This imbalance is a choice made when designing the jobs, and these conscious choices make all the difference in the world. Things like "usefulness" are a bit nebulous though; I'd argue that role usefulness is unbalanced in favor of Tanks at the moment.

Still, regardless of balance or imbalance, what's most important is how players feel about a job. Usefulness is a part of it, yes, but so are other intangibles like aminations, rotations, glamour, story, so on, and so on. That was what I was trying to impart - there are many things that go into this, and not one of those things are king. Enjoyment, or rather, the combination of it all is king. And the thing is, you can't exactly measure that, since each person values things differently.

You mentioned earlier that Balance brings in the business. I believe certain imbalances hurts business, like dps within the healer role. But what brings in the business in the first place has little to do how jobs stack up against each other.