A summary of healer issues

[ForsakenRoe]

I don't get what the whole big deal about a sprinting tank is. If you see the tank is sprinting ahead to the next pack, you react by using your own sprint and keeping up. Or are we no longer watching ally buff bars to see what they're doing (eg how much/little mit the tank is using, so you know to use more heal/mit to counteract)?

'Reacting to buff/debuff on ally' seems like the exact 'healer gameplay' that people want more of (eg when they ask for 'more things to use Esuna on'), so why is it so difficult to react to 'oh the tank used sprint here'?

[Shurrikhan]

I don't get what the whole big deal about a sprinting tank is. If you see the tank is sprinting ahead to the next pack, you react by using your own sprint and keeping up. Or are we no longer watching ally buff bars to see what they're doing (eg how much/little mit the tank is using, so you know to use more heal/mit to counteract)?

'Reacting to buff/debuff on ally' seems like the exact 'healer gameplay' that people want more of (eg when they ask for 'more things to use Esuna on'), so why is it so difficult to react to 'oh the tank used sprint here'?

Generally, I'll be stacked on or ahead of the tank by the end of each fight just to ensure my hitting Sprint the very moment after they do will keep me in range. And when tanking, I generally see the same from my non-WHM healers. (The WHM healers who attempt to Swiftcast Holy mid-gather, now that there's so no GCD healing to be done later anyways, slow and annoy the party more often than not.)

But, if keeping up as to AoE during the gather were truly impossible or out of one's hands, as per the discourse earlier, that'd be a matter of the tank sprinting ahead AND using a gap-closer on the first pack AND purposely continuing to keep all mobs out of reach of their party, and the healer not having Icarus at the ready (for instance, due to not being a Sage). So... the tank being new and on an excess of energy drinks, or subtly griefing.

Which can happen. But rarely will. Which makes it seem an oddly cherrypicked example from which to say that Bane would necessarily reduce/simplify DoT gameplay in dungeons...

[Sebazy]

I don't get what the whole big deal about a sprinting tank is.

I was thinking the same tbh...

I'm usually aiming to run a 3 legged race with the tank to the next pack out of habit, that way if I do accidentally pull agro (More of an issue in the past than it is now granted), it's not going to negatively affect anything, if anything I get to put my HP to use as a shield for the tank.

Even if they use plunge etc, the only time I can say I've had trouble keeping up is when I've been asleep at the wheel or too busy slurping the coffee.

I'll also repeat the 'Match your sprint with the Tanks' tip. That's super important and makes it much easier to not fall behind.

[Renathras]

Sabotaging, often with the purpose of demeaning or infuriating others.

....

Wow.

There just aren't other words.

Apparently, "Tanks gathering mobs" is now "sabotaging, often with the purpose of demeaning or infuriating others" and "preventing others uptime by playing keep-away". /facepalm

No one is losing 10-20 seconds of damage, and even if they were, [u]10 seconds[/i] is demeaning and infuriating? Good god...

Are you the tank in that example? I wasn't aware any tank had access to Biolysis and Art of War.

What? o.O

The difference is in the context.

NO!

Stop it and just apologize. I'm tired of this nonsense. YOUR EXACT WORDS ABOVE were not "they didn't same the same thing 'in context'".

Ren: Why call me out for a thing the poster above said they do?
Shurri: They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE. Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II.

THEY DID. They 100% SAID THE SAME THING. The only difference in context was that they WANTED to Deploy them but couldn't, so they DID THE EXACT SAME THING I DO AND SAID THEY DID THE EXACT SAME THING I DO AND SAID IT FIRST. I only said LATER that I did the same thing they did.

There's no "context" that changes the FACT that they said the same thing.

No "context" changes you lied when you said they didn't say it. There's no context that makes what THEY SAID THEY DID any different than what I said I do because it's literally the same thing. You weren't getting onto me for not wanting to spread Bio, you were getting onto me for applying it to each target instead of Arting them all, while giving a pass to someone else, before me, saying they did the same thing.

The CONTEXT doesn't change that.

I didn't "claim Bane would be bad", either. QUOTE ME saying Bane would be "bad". FIND THE QUOTE, damnit. Or apologize, because we both know there isn't one and I didn't say it. I caught you in a mistake and instead of just admitting to it, you're trying to avoid it and turn it around on me, including by making up something I didn't say.

There is no "context" argument here, and it's absurd to try that goalpost shift now.

.

Sorry if I'm coming off a little heated, I'm just sick and tired of this thing where people do something, I point out it's incorrect, then instead of a mere and simple "Oh, my bad", which isn't even a loss of face, people try to twist it and move goalposts to not only say they're somehow right anyway, but also attack me in the process by making up words to stick in my mouth that I never said.

I never said Bane "would be bad". I said I don't see how it's an improvement in general, and it doesn't change anything in single-target. I think stuff like that is overrated. Bad, on the other hand, is negative or actively detrimental.

[Renathras]

...

...

Are you guys replying to me or Shurrikhan?

I never said anyting about falling behind or having trouble keeping up OR not using Sprint.

She said I should be casting Art of War and not DoTs when the Tank is gathering enemies, and I pointed out if the Tank sprints and then gapcloses to the first pack, AOEs to agro them, continues running and then gapcloses to the second pack, I'm not in Art of War range unless I was far ahead of them (basically agroing the first pack before they get to it). But I'm well within range of both the Tank (for healing) and the enemies (for DoTing/Ruin 2 if I somehow DoT them all before the Tank is stopped by the wall, but that never happens because the GCD isn't that short).

Once the Tank gets to the second pack, I'm usually on the GCD from having DoTed the 4th enemy from the first group (there are usually four) and get to the pack by the time that GCD is finishing to start Artspamming.

I'm not sure where this "fall behind" or "not using sprint" is coming from. I use Sprint when the Tank does, DoT the first pack as the Tank moves to the second, get to the second about when my GCD from the last DoT is up, and shift over into AOEing. I'm not sure why this is some grotesque issue, nor why the Tank is griefing by doing this. I've literally never seen ANYONE complain about this before - not even here on this forum or in Tales from the Duty Finder. This seems the most extreme min-max BS complaint I've ever seen related to this game, especially since we're talking about the most casual of combat content possible, 4 man dungeon roulette.

EDIT:

Seriously, if we posted this topic literally anywhere else they talk about this game, I bet the majority would be saying it's not griefing, not bad play, and most would probably be saying something to the effect of "Are you serious right now?"

Not only that, a number of packs ARE only 3 enemies (or 4 spaced far enough Art won't hit them all), in which case DoTs ARE the DPS gain anyway. And as discussed, WHM can't (or shouldn't) be using Holy there anyway in the specific case of WHM. It's not "Dia does initial damage" that's the issue there, it's Holy's stun and cast time.

This is so stupid...

[Shurrikhan]

Wow.

There just aren't other words.

You asked how I define griefing and why I would consider purposely keeping others away from uptime to be griefing. I defined it and pointed out why those behaviors would serve no other purpose. But do go on, I guess?

There's no "context" that

A: So, this funny thing happened to me the other day, where I ended up doing X.
B: X is the only thing that could be done, and that's why you all don't/shouldn't really want this tool you say you want.

No part of A claimed that that is the only optional available. To say that we should NEVER get Bane because of a finding from that rare situation, though, would require that it is the norm.
Again:

They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE.
Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II."

There's no context by which to say that is the(ir) norm for AoE pulls, only the closest thing that can happen to having Bane / Bio-Deploy.

It's like pointing at someone laughing about how he somehow had a wipe in Aetherfront to say that Endgame dungeons are plenty difficult and should never get a lower ilvl ceiling.

[Sebazy]

Are you guys replying to me or Shurrikhan?

I never said anyting about falling behind or having trouble keeping up OR not using Sprint.

It was in reference to this tangent in general, untwist your knickers sir. As I made it clear the first time, in my personal experience, the only issues I've had with this have been entirely self made. That includes back when we were baning dot with a cast time as well as getting Aero III off consistently mid pull as well.

This is so stupid...

Keep it civil sir.

[Connor]

Funny that everyone acts like Bane is an absolute necessity for DoTs yet Bard has managed just fine without it this entire time…

Even more hilarious is that everyone constantly shits on Ren for whatever he posts, then give his posts literally more traffic than they ever would have by constantly quoting them just to say how wrong they are. If you really despise someone so much shouldn’t you just ignore them? Or report them or something? I don’t see what the benefit of this circumlocution is.

Ren writes a super long post that doesn’t come across properly, Shurrikhan/Sebazy/ForsakenRoe/Whoever aggressively ‘debunk’ everything he says, Ren gets annoyed and makes a super long post dramatically: you guys have literally taken over every single healer thread and frankly I’m a little sick of the healer forums literally just being a bunch of conversations that become ‘Ren VS Whoever it is this time’.

Again if you really hate someone’s take so much why keep giving it airtime…

[NobleWinter]

Forums are literally for people to converse. That includes both agreement and disagreement. Ren has interesting ideas occasionally but even if they never ever had a good take the answer would not be to let them fill the entire forum with their sole voice. Silence is tacit agreement and definitely does more harm than good in most scenarios. I actually like that Ren creates more traffic on the forum and opens up avenues to hear opinions from people I really enjoy. I literally learned how to play this game from tips on the forums and I would hate to see that kind of discourse be lost because everyone chooses to ostracize and alienate one person with radio silence.

[Connor]

Forums are literally for people to converse

From my understanding the FFXIV forums were supposed to be for leaving feedback about the game.

Saying silence is tacit agreement seems a little dangerous lol. Nobody ever replies to my posts about how we should all have gcd buffs and debuffs and that dps abilities and DoTs are purely ancillary, but that doesn’t meant they agree in any way, shape or form. More likely they just read my post and (reasonably) concluded it was a bad idea because it doesn’t work in ffxiv like, at all.

People giving their opinions and agreement/disagreement isn’t really the issue here, it’s that they’ve become so circular that every thread devolves into the same thing (Two or more people arguing over who is more right) and not actual opinions or discussions about the game itself.

Personally I just don’t see the point of making a protracted rebuttal to someone’s opinion purely because you don’t like it. That doesn’t mean ostracising or ‘silencing’ anyone, it just means not engaging with them when it comes a point that they’re being ‘unreasonable’. If they reevaluate and come back more willing to actually discuss, then of course they shouldn’t still be ignored