A summary of healer issues

[vetch]

You don't even need to combine the DoTs to remove Iron Jaws, the potency loss from not using it is infinitesimal.

[Shurrikhan]

It becomes like a self-fulfilling thing, where they get more and more simple/lose interactions, then eventually just get removed 'because they're boring anyway'.

Aye. A masterclass in subtle sapping, honestly.

If Iron Jaws didn't exist, BRD's DOTs would have nothing going on.

To be fair, they have even less going on precisely because of Iron Jaws. The skill hasn't made sense since multi-DoTing was largely obligatory for sustained AoE (e.g., due to the TP costs of longer-term Quick Nock spam, even if discounting the lost Rain of Death frequency from multi-DoTing and the waste of QN before the full gather). Since then, it's existed only for button-bloat and to increase the portion of filler casts per minute.

Wouldn't be surprised if they just combine both of the DOTs on BRD into one so they can remove Iron Jaws and the second DOT as a keybind

But yeah. That'd be pretty likely. Especially since that's what's already the case anyways after the first 2 GCDs per ST fight.

[Supersnow845]

Whether you think bane was a deep interesting mechanic or a messy pile of garbage at least it was a level of interaction the modern DOT’s don’t have

If you replaced the modern healer DOT’s with a single target instacast nuke of the DOT’s current potency on a 30 second CD then literally nothing about healers would change in a meaningful sense, the current Dots are just a vague flavour design

[Renathras]

Sabezy: That's kind of what I mean, though. I don't think just being able to spread a DoT really does that. It needs to be...something else.

Surrikhan: Why call me out for a thing the poster above said they do? You know how I say all the time you guys give other people a pass on stuff but hold me to a higher standard? This is the kinda stuff I'm talking about. In answer to your question: Because Tanks have gap closers. Meaning even if I'm running with the Tank, they tend to LEAP 20 yards ahead. Art of War's radius is not 20 yards. So I DoT while catching up to the pack as well as throwing out any oGCDs I feel are useful. Should I just spam Art hitting no enemies? Is that some kind of giga-brain move?

Icecylee: I think it depends on the players. I tried doing a run with no healers and no WAR and it went sideways. Fast. The RDM was having to be a shoehorned healer spamming Vercure. I think this very much depends on players, the specific Jobs, and how over-geared they are vs the dungeon. You don't need Savage fights for that, just the next tier's tome gear. Do Manalis in ilevel 590 and it makes quite a difference vs doing it in 640. And keep in mind, 640 is just tome gear. 625 is Aetherfont drop gear. 620 was LAST patch tome gear. 605 was the gear that dropped in Manalis. 590 was the tome and 24 man gear from before then.

And it's not that WAR is easy, it's that WAR has a Benediction every 25 seconds and a Cure 1 on self every 4.5 (Storm's Path), which is normalized as roughly the amount of healing over time that Kardia does (about Cure 1 every 3 Dosis casts). WAR basically has a self-Kardia on at all times and a pocket Benediction every less-than-thirty seconds when in trash packs (AOE for multiple targets). Not always, but almost always, the "I didn't have to heal anything in a 4 man" stories are people in max gear (at least current tome) and with a WAR Tank. Maybe my luck sucks (or is great, depending on how you look at it), but I consistently get DRK tanks, and have to actually heal them. While I can do it entirely with oGCDs (or if WHM, oGCDs + Lilies; no cast time GCDs nor Regen), it definitely isn't just "I didn't even press an oGCD heal the entire run". If I legitimately did not heal them, they legitimately would die, so it's not "unnecessary overhealing/they don't have to be at 100%". I usually start healing when they get down around 30-40%, and that's with me already using mitigation like Soil.

[Shurrikhan]

Meaning even if I'm running with the Tank, they tend to LEAP 20 yards ahead.

If the tank's griefing the party by sprinting ahead far in advance AND using a gapcloser on the initial pull to ensure melee and healers are hamstrung during the gather, then sure, use Biolysis spam. But unless you're massively unlucky, that's far from the norm. Such isn't an inevitability or a norm. It's a fall-back. Against 4+ targets, you should be using AoW.

Why call me out for a thing the poster above said they do?

They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE.
Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II."

There's no context by which to say that is the(ir) norm for AoE pulls, only the closest thing that can happen to having Bane / Bio-Deploy.

Maybe my luck sucks (or is great, depending on how you look at it), but I consistently get DRK tanks, and have to actually heal them. While I can do it entirely with oGCDs (or if WHM, oGCDs + Lilies; no cast time GCDs nor Regen), it definitely isn't just "I didn't even press an oGCD heal the entire run". If I legitimately did not heal them, they legitimately would die, so it's not "unnecessary overhealing/they don't have to be at 100%". I usually start healing when they get down around 30-40%, and that's with me already using mitigation like Soil.

Same. I've tanked dungeons at basically minimum ilvl (when coming back from a break from XIV or having only tanked on another character) and not needed any GCD healing... but that's only really nearly guaranteed if the party DPS is quite high (and it helps to have a potion in my pocket, just in case) such that most mobs are dead by the time I'm ever out of CDs. And when I'm the healer, it's not terribly uncommon that I'd even have to use Solace during the pulls, instead of between them.

Usually, I at least do have to make pretty full use of my oGCDs. It's just rare I'd have to take any potency loss outside of Solaces being used during some pulls instead solely of between them.

[Renathras]

If the tank's griefing the party by sprinting ahead far in advance AND using a gapcloser

I...don't think we have the same definition of the word griefing.

I usually have JUST enough time to DoT all 4(ish) of the mobs of the initial pack and MAYBE have time to DoT one of the mobs from the second pack as I catch up. So it's not like the party is losing out on some incredible amount of damage this way. And since it allows the Tanks to more quickly gather all the mobs into one spot for stationary AOEs to be placed, I don't see that as griefing at all. Most would call it efficient, and the time difference between that and them letting the healer run with them to do tick AOE damage (which WHM can't even do and AST is limited by Lightspeed once per every other pack) would hardly be anything. Even if you're right that it's a smidge more potency damage, the difference MIGHT be 3-5 seconds or one GCD faster. "griefing" that isn't.

Moreover, this happens with almost every run I do. "massively unlucky"? It seems to be the norm.

And this kind of comment, btw, is the min-maxy BS that ruins games. "You're losing 70 potency once every AOE pack that might be HALF a GCD slower killing the pack! That's griefing/bad gameplay!!" Really? I...don't think it is.

They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE.
Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II."

... So I applied the DoT to each mob and then spammed Art of War until everything died.

...so he literally said he did the same thing I did. Applied to the DoT to each mob (while catching up to the Tank, presumably), then spammed Art until everything died once caught up. That's LITERALLY the same thing I said. Either you don't/didn't read it, or as I accuse, you want to find things to attack me for while you give a pass to people who aren't me for saying/doing the same thing.

.

As for all the talk of god DRK's using perfectly timed LDs:

You guys don't run random ques solo much, do you? Because that isn't the common experience as far as I can tell.

[Shurrikhan]

I...don't think we have the same definition of the word griefing.

Sabotaging, often with the purpose of demeaning or infuriating others. If the tank is purposely preventing others uptime by playing keep-away with the mobs over the whole course of the gather... that description doesn't sound far off.

Yes, losing those 10-20 seconds of Melee/Ranger/SGE/SCH/AST damage on the initial pack by keeping out of their reach over the gather only gets the final pack into place at most a second or two earlier, but there's no one in place to make use of that so only the tank's damage on the final pack is starting any sooner, and less resource has been generated in advance for that full gather. All in all, it's just an annoyance and a way to slow down one's party. Much like pulling a raid boss with Plunge, it's not generally a good idea.

And this kind of comment, btw, is the min-maxy BS that ruins games. "You're losing 70 potency once every AOE pack that might be HALF a GCD slower killing the pack! That's griefing/bad gameplay!!" Really? I...don't think it is.

Are you the tank in that example? I wasn't aware any tank had access to Biolysis and Art of War.

I only pointed out the math behind why adding Bane or the ability to Deploy one's DoTs would not simplify gameplay in the context you claimed it would. The only 'griefing' I pointed out would be tank behaviors that would prevent you from using Art of War.

That's LITERALLY the same thing I said.

The difference is in the context. When you're claiming that Bane would be bad because it could only ever reduce the amount of cast-variety in AoE, that's not a one-time off-the-cuff example within a larger story about how little healing is required; it would have to be the norm/sole possibility among AoE pulls.

[Renathras]

Sabotaging, often with the purpose of demeaning or infuriating others.

....

Wow.

There just aren't other words.

Apparently, "Tanks gathering mobs" is now "sabotaging, often with the purpose of demeaning or infuriating others" and "preventing others uptime by playing keep-away". /facepalm

No one is losing 10-20 seconds of damage, and even if they were, [u]10 seconds[/i] is demeaning and infuriating? Good god...

Are you the tank in that example? I wasn't aware any tank had access to Biolysis and Art of War.

What? o.O

The difference is in the context.

NO!

Stop it and just apologize. I'm tired of this nonsense. YOUR EXACT WORDS ABOVE were not "they didn't same the same thing 'in context'".

Ren: Why call me out for a thing the poster above said they do?
Shurri: They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE. Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II.

THEY DID. They 100% SAID THE SAME THING. The only difference in context was that they WANTED to Deploy them but couldn't, so they DID THE EXACT SAME THING I DO AND SAID THEY DID THE EXACT SAME THING I DO AND SAID IT FIRST. I only said LATER that I did the same thing they did.

There's no "context" that changes the FACT that they said the same thing.

No "context" changes you lied when you said they didn't say it. There's no context that makes what THEY SAID THEY DID any different than what I said I do because it's literally the same thing. You weren't getting onto me for not wanting to spread Bio, you were getting onto me for applying it to each target instead of Arting them all, while giving a pass to someone else, before me, saying they did the same thing.

The CONTEXT doesn't change that.

I didn't "claim Bane would be bad", either. QUOTE ME saying Bane would be "bad". FIND THE QUOTE, damnit. Or apologize, because we both know there isn't one and I didn't say it. I caught you in a mistake and instead of just admitting to it, you're trying to avoid it and turn it around on me, including by making up something I didn't say.

There is no "context" argument here, and it's absurd to try that goalpost shift now.

.

Sorry if I'm coming off a little heated, I'm just sick and tired of this thing where people do something, I point out it's incorrect, then instead of a mere and simple "Oh, my bad", which isn't even a loss of face, people try to twist it and move goalposts to not only say they're somehow right anyway, but also attack me in the process by making up words to stick in my mouth that I never said.

I never said Bane "would be bad". I said I don't see how it's an improvement in general, and it doesn't change anything in single-target. I think stuff like that is overrated. Bad, on the other hand, is negative or actively detrimental.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow.

There just aren't other words.

You asked how I define griefing and why I would consider purposely keeping others away from uptime to be griefing. I defined it and pointed out why those behaviors would serve no other purpose. But do go on, I guess?

There's no "context" that

A: So, this funny thing happened to me the other day, where I ended up doing X.
B: X is the only thing that could be done, and that's why you all don't/shouldn't really want this tool you say you want.

No part of A claimed that that is the only optional available. To say that we should NEVER get Bane because of a finding from that rare situation, though, would require that it is the norm.
Again:

They didn't. They just said they were ready to Bio-Deploy, only to be reminded that they can't do that in PvE.
Such =/= "I Bio spammed when I could and should have been using Art of War II."

There's no context by which to say that is the(ir) norm for AoE pulls, only the closest thing that can happen to having Bane / Bio-Deploy.

It's like pointing at someone laughing about how he somehow had a wipe in Aetherfront to say that Endgame dungeons are plenty difficult and should never get a lower ilvl ceiling.

[Katish]

I've done dungeons just fine without a healer on pld and gnb, these without heal jobs usually. (War just makes it super easy requiring less kiting if doing full pulls)
I have not had the opportunity to do dungeons on DK without a healer [Just has never happened, healerless runs happen by happenstance, usually the healer disconnecting from the beginning] (I still think it's possible for a dk to mitigate it and use their one heal button in between but that requires more exact timing. And since the cd is so long, precise timing on LD as well, the longer you can drag it out while only attacking/healing near the end of LD, the longer the invuln. The rest you can handle by kiting probably and whenever you can TBN)

That actually sounds fun, I am open to do a run for just trying that lel.