A summary of healer issues

[Connor]

??? Asked for what? No changes? You know that SE makes their arguments with MSQ-only players? Did you understand my post at all?

Healers haven’t asked for changes that affect MSQ-only players. It makes no difference to them whether certain non-healing spells or abilities are returned because they can complete the content regardless? They’ve specifically made all of their recommendations with those players in mind. They don’t want ‘fucked up bars’ and nobody is asking for ‘major rotational changes’

I understand the post I just don’t understand the relevance

[BRVV]

Healers haven’t asked for changes that affect MSQ-only players. It makes no difference to them whether certain non-healing spells or abilities are returned because they can complete the content regardless? They’ve specifically made all of their recommendations with those players in mind. They don’t want ‘fucked up bars’ and nobody is asking for ‘major rotational changes’

I understand the post I just don’t understand the relevance

If you change a bunch of abilities, a real rework than someone's old rotation and buttons don't work anymore. What is there not to get? Are you ok?

[Renathras]

If you change a bunch of abilities, a real rework than someone's old rotation and buttons don't work anymore. What is there not to get? Are you ok?

This is a continuing problem. People ask for changes that affect the whole Job, then insist it won't matter to "casuals" since they expect that "casuals" will just not press the buttons and be fine doing less healing/damage. While it's true some will, others won't, and may notice the difference. But we're told no one will and it will only affect the hardcore of the hardcore players and no one else.

When proposing solutions, it's important to accurately portray the cost-benefit analysis. While you might think that the benefits outweigh the costs, whenever someone tells you there are NO costs to their proposal, they're pretty much always lying, since everything has trade-offs and costs. So then you have to look into what they're leaving out. The bigger problem then becomes, when this is explained to them, instead of admitting reality and presenting arguments for why it still works or compromises to address the concerns, they just continue to insist there are no costs even though everyone else can see them. This then diminishes the likelihood people who disagree will agree with them, because now they see not only their disagreements but that the other side is lying/not presenting ideas/arguments in good faith.

I don't know who all needs to hear it, but YES, making changes to Jobs affects everyone that plays the Job unless the changes are completely redundant or have no actual effects. E.g. converting a 1-2-3 into a 1-1-1 or a 1-1-1 into a 1-2-3 where the 1, 2, and 3 buttons all do the same exact damage as each other (for example, give WHM a Stone, Aero, Water "rotation", but all the spells do identical damage so someone casting Glare Glare Glare gets the exact same outcome) wouldn't affect anyone, but it also would be a pointless proposal. Making Dia 12 sec duration instead of 30 would affect every WHM player except those who outright don't use Dia at all ever. And I've been assured that 80+% uptime is the average, making non-Dia players exceedingly rare by corollary.

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It's time to stop saying things that aren't true. These changes WOULD affect everyone. Saying they wouldn't doesn't make one's argument stronger, it makes it weaker by being associated with a lie.

Instead, arguments must be presented to either support the change as a "greater good" anyway, or compromise modifications to minimize the impact and effect.

[Connor]

If you change a bunch of abilities, a real rework than someone's old rotation and buttons don't work anymore. What is there not to get? Are you dense?

If this is honestly what you think people have asked for you need to re-read this thread lol.

Returning pre-existing abilities that content can be completed with or without does not affect MSQ-only players. In case you haven’t noticed, healers aren’t actually asking for dps-level rotations or difficulty levels. Nor would the majority of the things people have asked for - SCH DoTs, WHM’s Aero III, etc, - actually affect the job’s ‘rotation’ or any of their already existing buttons.

[BRVV]

If this is honestly what you think people have asked for you need to re-read this thread lol.

Returning [i] pre-existing [i/] abilities that content can be completed with or without does not affect MSQ-only players. In case you haven’t noticed, healers aren’t actually asking for dps-level rotations or difficulty levels.

Ok you misunderstand everything i say. Great. I SAID SQUARE ENIX USES NOT MAKING CASUALS CONFUSED AS AN ARGUMENT TO NOT TO MAKE TOO MANY CHANGES DURING A EXPANSION. Got it now? I never said anything about what healers want???

I also don't get where you get those "extra buttons" rederick from. I don't know why this 148 pages topic is EXCLUSIVELY on returning old abilties for you??? And what should those abilites even be that don't affect gameplay apparently? A second DOT for scholar maybe? Bringing that back?

[Connor]

Ok you misunderstand everything i say. Great. I SAID SQUARE ENIX USES NOT MAKING CASUALS CONFUSED AS AN ARGUMENT TO NOT TO MAKE TOO MANY CHANGES DURING A EXPANSION. Got it now? I never said anything about what healers want???

I also don't get where you get those "extra buttons" rederick from. I don't know why this 148 pages topic is EXCLUSIVELY on returning old abilties for you??? And what should those abilites even be that don't affect gameplay apparently? A second DOT for scholar maybe? Bringing that back?

Because they literally could’ve thrown healers a bone at any point in the past few years and refused. Yes, it would be ridiculous to make major rotational changes halfway during an expansion cycle. They can still address the issue without doing that. Hell, giving back 1 SCH DoT probably would make people complain less about healer issues because it would at least be some kind of acknowledgement that the issues exist. Instead the best we’ve got was ‘if healers want to heal more they should do ultimates’, which didn’t exactly go down well (because it’s besides the point)

[BRVV]

Because they literally could’ve thrown healers a bone at any point in the past few years and refused. Yes, it would be ridiculous to make major rotational changes halfway during an expansion cycle. They can still address the issue without doing that. Hell, giving back 1 SCH DoT probably would make people complain less about healer issues because it would at least be some kind of acknowledgement that the issues exist. Instead the best we’ve got was ‘if healers want to heal more they should do ultimates’, which didn’t exactly go down well (because it’s besides the point)

Ah now i understand. In your first comment i quoted you talked about large scale reworks.

Completely agree. They could give us the second DoT back in 6.5. Not much change in play but a welcome one.

In fact i would give all healers a second DoT (maybe with lower potency but longer time) and a AOE DoT that shares a timer with one of the other DoTs for trash. Reuse old symbols and animations and voila.

[Connor]

Ah now i understand. In your first comment i quoted you talked about large scale reworks.

Completely agree. They could give us the second DoT back in 6.5. Not much change in play but a welcome one.

In fact i would give all healers a second DoT (maybe with lower potency but longer time) and a AOE DoT that shares a timer with one of the other DoTs for trash. Reuse old symbols and animations and voila.

Yeah, i meant more that there could’ve been ‘between-expansion’ changes that at least make the issues a bit easier to deal with until they can do the bigger ones with expansions.

I get that it would be too weird for them to make change rotations or add a bunch of new skills etc, especially when people are still doing savage/ultimate where proper rotations and the like make a real difference.

But at the same time, one of the most common things I’ve seen people asking for is ‘return healers to Stormblood’. Naturally it would be a bit much to revert their entire kits, but things like giving back old DoTs could still help address those issues a bit, while also making it clearer they’re aware people have them. We’ve seen with Machinist’s Dismantle that it is possible for them to return pre-existing abilities. And even if they didn’t want to return the DoTs themselves, personally I think there’s a good amount of non-offensive options they could choose from as well. Like Scholar’s Eye for an Eye (whether or not it’s affected by Deployment), White Mage’s Stoneskin, or Astrologian’s Disable. Granted two of those were oGCD, but it would at least somewhat address the ‘we have too much powerful/direct healing relative to the content’ issue many healers have

[BRVV]

Yeah, i meant more that there could’ve been ‘between-expansion’ changes that at least make the issues a bit easier to deal with until they can do the bigger ones with expansions.

Indeed. Making those small changes in patches and awaiting player feedback is a great way to test the waters so to speak. Sadly, since they don't do this with healers, i think we won't get meaningful changes for healers in 7.0.

[IDontPetLalas]

Yeah, i meant more that there could’ve been ‘between-expansion’ changes that at least make the issues a bit easier to deal with until they can do the bigger ones with expansions.

I get that it would be too weird for them to make change rotations or add a bunch of new skills etc, especially when people are still doing savage/ultimate where proper rotations and the like make a real difference.

But at the same time, one of the most common things I’ve seen people asking for is ‘return healers to Stormblood’. Naturally it would be a bit much to revert their entire kits, but things like giving back old DoTs could still help address those issues a bit, while also making it clearer they’re aware people have them. We’ve seen with Machinist’s Dismantle that it is possible for them to return pre-existing abilities. And even if they didn’t want to return the DoTs themselves, personally I think there’s a good amount of non-offensive options they could choose from as well. Like Scholar’s Eye for an Eye (whether or not it’s affected by Deployment), White Mage’s Stoneskin, or Astrologian’s Disable. Granted two of those were oGCD, but it would at least somewhat address the ‘we have too much powerful/direct healing relative to the content’ issue many healers have

That sounds like a very reasonable approach, as you say it would at least acknowledge the feedback, while not disrupting the content where even small job changes can potentially affect a group's ability to clear. I wish SE had this sensible approach.