A summary of healer issues

[ForsakenRoe]

Should note, since WOW's UI was brought up (and how people used addons to help track DOTs), the DF rework to the UI helps track your DOTs a lot better. They appear on the 'nameplate' for each enemy that you're fighting, and as of god knows which expansion at this point, they have what is known as the 'pandemic window', named after Pandemic, an Aff Lock skill. Basically, you can refresh a DOT early and it'll add the remaining duration to the refresh, up to a maximum of 1/3 of the original duration (so a 30s DOT can be refreshed at up to 10s early, and it'd go up to 40s), allowing some flexibility in when to refresh the DOTs (ie, if you need to move 6s before the DOTs fall off, you can use the DOT refresh as your mobility casts)

If there's a plugin that allows FF14 players to have their DOTs appear on the emnity tracker list thingy, as I tried to show in that pic, then I hope SE implements something similar soon. Since, y'know, they seem to be adding a lot of plugin-made solutions for things that were previously described as being 'impossible'. Like 'have I obtained this orch roll yet' details in the tooltip. Or damage types for flying text when you get hit. Or timers appearing on the party list so you can track debuffs (imagine trying to do P10S daemoniac bonds if you can't tell whether it's Role>Spread or Spread>Role). Be nice if they could add chat bubbles hint hint

[Shurrikhan]

Should note, since WOW's UI was brought up (and how people used addons to help track DOTs), the DF rework to the UI helps track your DOTs a lot better. They appear on the 'nameplate' for each enemy that you're fighting, and as of god knows which expansion at this point, they have what is known as the 'pandemic window', named after Pandemic, an Aff Lock skill. Basically, you can refresh a DOT early and it'll add the remaining duration to the refresh, up to a maximum of 1/3 of the original duration (so a 30s DOT can be refreshed at up to 10s early, and it'd go up to 40s), allowing some flexibility in when to refresh the DOTs (ie, if you need to move 6s before the DOTs fall off, you can use the DOT refresh as your mobility casts)

I think that was added back in... jeesh, MoP?

(What's especially funny is it wasn't even the first gamewide fix that was originally a Warlock talent/trait by that name. DoTs originally couldn't crit without the Warlock talent called Pandemic.)

On that note...

Personally, I'd prefer a hybrid function (flat + smaller percentile) or 3/4-power function, or maybe even a flat ~4 seconds, over a fixed percentage as high as 30%, as the last can remove the advantage of SkS at many GCD thresholds* rather than merely fixing the bottleneck hurting SkS at other thresholds.

* Consider: that's up to 18 seconds [9 SAM GCDs] of leeway on Higanbana, 9 seconds [4 GCDs] on Dia. That seems excessive.

If the object of the duration-rollover mechanic is to allow for a greater number of GCD speeds and to less constrain what rotational nuance might otherwise exist, then our goal should be shifting but exploitable play: E.g., the speeds at which one would be forced to clip Demolish significantly early or else potentially lose more than one DoT tick (e.g., drop Demolish for any length of time greater than 3.0 seconds) should allow for just enough pandemic to then fit in an extra Snap Punch per Demolish in the next rotational string.

The only 18s rotational DoT, for instance, is on Monk, who has a maximum of a 2s GCD.

The next bound rotational DoT is DRG's 24s, where if SkS just weren't so terrible, one might likely run a 2.4 GCD in order to do 5 combo cycles per raid cycle, rather than 4.8 cycles (causing drift) and to apply CT every 10th GCD instead of per every 10.42 GCDs' time.

And our final common DoT is the healers' 30s, every 12th GCD.

With the only remainder then being Bard's 45s, every 18th GCD, and SAM's Higanbana, starting at a frequency equal to 27.59 GCDs, but which many may SkS to per 27 (a 2.22s GCD), and SkS addicts stretching as far as per-30 GCDs (a 2.00s GCD).

The most key among these, for the simple fact that they're bundled rather than free DoTs (outside of PB on Monk), are going to be the MNK [1 in 9], DRG [1 in 10], and SAM [1 in 27-30] DoTs...

How can we simultaneously get the MNK DoT to be capable of less constrained rotation without giving the SAM far too much leeway? For now, DRG would never run a short-Heavens rotation due to the ppgcd of the 4th|5th GCDs of each combo being so high now (especially compared to HW or early SB), but that then begs the question... could pandemic ever actually benefit them, since you'd progressively just overcap the Chaos Thrust for, at most, fewer dropped DoT ticks over a long boss transition?

Hmm... Will have to do a fair bit of spreadsheeting. Darn.

[Banriikku]

A thought i had while testing Overwatch 2.... FFXIV Healer feel like healer but the encounter design feels like a Supporter is needed NOT a healer.

[Shurrikhan]

A thought i had while testing Overwatch 2.... FFXIV Healer feel like healer but the encounter design feels like a Supporter is needed NOT a healer.

Except that XIV also lacks sufficient gamewide (e.g., via shared undermechanical) depth / nuance / complexity for a Support here to do a fifth of what all it manages there...

But if you bring up adding that depth as to support more interesting kit and a role that isn't so inherently quick to become redundant and they'll point at the current repetitive kits and say "For what purpose?" leaving those kits with nothing to source them and game mechanics with nothing to leverage, or worse, further their downward reductive spiral.

[Renathras]

A thought i had while testing Overwatch 2.... FFXIV Healer feel like healer but the encounter design feels like a Supporter is needed NOT a healer.

Sort of, that's 2/3rds of the problem.

The other 1/3rd is that FFXIV's combat system is so rigid, there's not room for a Support either. And I mean this in two ways - there's not room for a Support ROLE and also there's not room for a Support playstyle.

In games with dedicated Support/Control roles, they tend to have a lot of things they can manage. Adds are serious threats, so crowd control is the order of the day, either pacifying enemies or mind-controlling them. Resources (MP, TP, Energy, Rage) are tightly managed, so classes with refresh are welcome. Rotations aren't rigidly optimized, so things like Haste are a boon rather than a headache. Snares/slows, stuns, sleeps, polymorphs; all valued additions. And in many games, teleports and summons (of other players to content) are also welcome, as are making food/water, and wipe recovery, especially in games with stiff death penalties and long walks back to the zone-in for the raid (or even dungeons) from the nearest graveyard.

FFXIV has literally none of that other than HAVING MP at all, but MP management isn't a thing any Job does seriously other than BLM, and in BLM's case, it's part of the rotation and the crux of the Job's design in the first place.

So the problem is three parts:

1) FFXIV Healer Jobs are designed to be, and feel like, Healers.
2) FFXIV encounter design seems to be based on having DPS and Support (even many mechanics are executed this way), not DPS, Healers, and (often) Tanks.
3) ...but FFXIV's rigid combat system doesn't really even allow for Support, it just allows for "things that are worse at DPS" but required (sometimes) by some encounter specific mechanic.

(1) isn't inherently a problem, but for the fact (2) exists; but (2) is also its own problem because of (3).

[Shurrikhan]

So the problem is three parts:

1) FFXIV Healer Jobs are designed to be, and feel like, Healers.
2) FFXIV encounter design seems to be based on having DPS and Support (even many mechanics are executed this way), not DPS, Healers, and (often) Tanks.
3) ...but FFXIV's rigid combat system doesn't really even allow for Support, it just allows for "things that are worse at DPS" but required (sometimes) by some encounter specific mechanic.

(1) isn't inherently a problem, but for the fact (2) exists; but (2) is also its own problem because of (3).

Aye, this hits the nail on the head.

Related food for thought, though:

Is it even possible to have difficulty enough to allow for an environment that can allow for Support (and for that matter, Healers and Tanks being worthwhile beyond a mere 'composition check' mechanic) for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content... if we keep allowing players to so badly overgear said content?

On that note... do we even need content to be allowed a maximum item level (more than slightly) above the item level that content itself grants?

(Assume for this question that we're free to proportionately reduce grind times via increased rewards or whatnot to compensate for the added time these activities would take by not making them increasingly a joke [e.g., from 4 Savage BiS raiders streaming through The Aetherfront at i550+ to being capped at the dungeon's i525 or the previous tier's BiS of i530].)

* 'Difficulty' here being what allows for short-term DPS checks and CC value, AoE damage that'd actually be punishing and might need a speed boost to be avoided enough [think linear fall-off / proximity-based AoEs] not to use up healer GCDs (for costs contextually significant in more ways than just the lost offensive-ppgcd of that uptime expended), etc., etc.

[Renathras]

[B]Is it even possible to have difficulty enough to allow for an environment that can allow for Support (and for that matter, Healers and Tanks being worthwhile beyond a mere 'composition check' mechanic) for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content... if we keep allowing players to so badly overgear said content?

I think so, yes.

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level. TBC Heroics required crowd control, for example, because the enemies hit too hard and players couldn't just AOE burn everything to the ground at the time. Basically, doing content unsynced, which used to be how every MMO worked. The idea of syncing to do content is (relatively) novel in MMOs, but by that point, people kind of want it to be. I don't think anyone WANTS Aurum Vale to be ARR AV level of difficult/obnoxious. Was it SCH that didn't have Leaches at that level, so you couldn't even cure Poison and just had to deal with it? I think once the game has moved to the next expansion, players largely want Leveling/etc roulettes to be relative pushovers. While there are some people that desire Mythic+ levels of engagement, I think most people don't want that from that kind of content, and prefer the sync feature for resource grinds, getting to run content decently tuned with new friends to the game (as opposed to just power-leveling/running them since your character can sneeze and destroy all enemies in the zone), and ensuring new players can clear essential content reliably.

As for on level content, I think we're always going to have the MSQ in the game, but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases. If, for the sake of argument, we actually did have Support as a role (say BRD/MCH/DNC/maybe RDM?) with CC and stuff, we could have harder content designed for it, like Criterion (none of that "Criterion Action" stuff; you need to actually form parties in /shout like we did in 2007!). In "normal" content, they'd just slot in as one of the DPS slots, but in the harder content designed for it, they'd have their own dedicated spot. Wouldn't be hard for that kind of content to have field effects that do things like "natural HP and MP regeneration is suppressed/suspended while in combat". Considering they have an effect for this that prevents raises AND some PotD floors can have a no natural HP recovery effect (a real PITA if you get that while on a Job without healing and happened to get a Pox from a Mimic...), so it's entirely possible to do it. That would make things like Regens more valuable as well as MP refreshes. Like EQ Enchanters/Bards being desired in parties for that same reason - Healer (and Caster) MP needs.

The thing is, it would require at least some changes overall, like doing away with the 2 min meta and such. Probably would be better for Tanks and Healers as well, since such content would give them room to shine, too, and it would give people that outlet for those wanting content that really leans into roles and their capabilities.

It's not at all impossible, just requires the game - specifically CONTENT within the game - to be built around it.

Heck, FFXIV already has the foundation for it - all those status effects every Extreme/Savage/Ultimate boss in the game is immune to...are still in the game. All Casters have Sleep, all Healers have Repose, all Tanks and Melee have Stun (PLD has two), all Tanks have Interrupt, all Ranged have Heavy, Silence, and either Pacify or Root, I forget which. And that's before we look at the insanity that is PvP with no diminishing returns.

The coding is in the game for stuff like the old Caster MP transfer ability to other players.

And look at BLU's abilities - that actually use all that stuff. Look at JUST what afflictions Bad Breath slaps on things you hit with it.

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

[Shurrikhan]

It's not like crowd control and support stuff doesn't exist. While it's just used for Tank, DPS, and Heal, it'd probably be possible to make a BLU Support build based around things like crowd control and enemy placement, etc.

The last time we could CC a boss outside of a mere interrupt, though... was the very first in the game (Ifrit HM), no? It's not exactly relevant to any difficult content. (Though, I certain would love to see Savage Dungeons and Exploratory Missions. I'd spam that shit just for fun.)

WoW has had difficult (for given eras of gaming) content that was eventually made trivial for people to do years later by overgearing, but was difficult at level.

Right, but that's why I asked about having that "for more than just Ultimates and the highest tier of the most recent content".

Is the ability to speedrun anything and everything really worth wrecking an increasingly large portion (already some 99%) of the game over?

Do the 'gotta go fast' benefits of letting, say, Crystal Tower scale to nearly twice its minimum item level... really outweigh the mass content-degradation is causes by removing its difficulty (or even a third or more of mechanics, in many cases)?

but you can clear those with parties of 4 Healers or 4 Tanks or 4 DPS, or even 1 Tank in many cases

Tbh, I don't even really think that's a problem. Heck, being able to flex the norm is... a fun bonus, really. It's just when the matchmade norm is pretty clearly inferior that we'd have a problem.

What I meant by the difficulty necessary to situate Support is more... mechanics and situations where support beyond just "Here's another rDPS buff!" would actually be worthwhile. A in-combat speed buff being worthwhile, for instance, requires having some things that you are otherwise going to be hit or would otherwise cost quite all but the contextually hypermobile some amount of rDPS, even if not necessarily as a one-shot (which in turn requires a particular balance between healer restorative vs. offensive ppgcd, etc).

For Support to be a thing, I suspect there need to be a decently tight balance between roles, including a certain fungibility to their outputs (tank turtling = healer chadding, instead of just a waste of resource; healer having spending oGCDs previously saved for emergencies that can no longer happen = melee can, in fact, stand in that fire; etc.), and also mechanics that are willing to hurt / pressure.

But if we only have even the last bit (sufficiently difficult/pressuring environments) in 1% of content (Ultimates and the latest Savage) simply because we can so outgear everything else... would that even seem worth the effort?

[Post]

Adding to that mitigation imbalance, increasing the range of all oGCD mitigation and healing tools to account for the increased sizes of hitboxes or increased demand on movement or spreading requirements puts an even heavier imbalance on against direct healing, as those same tools that generally require a healer to be stationary have a smaller range than even non-healer cooldowns now.

I think range as a dimension of gameplay to consider is currently being eroded much like MP economy, enmity, dispelling, applying status effects shielding for prey, positionals etc.

Hopefully they have something equally or more engaging to take it's place, or else it may feel like there's less to consider at every level of gameplay.

[vetch]

Adding to that mitigation imbalance, increasing the range of all oGCD mitigation and healing tools to account for the increased sizes of hitboxes or increased demand on movement or spreading requirements puts an even heavier imbalance on against direct healing, as those same tools that generally require a healer to be stationary have a smaller range than even non-healer cooldowns now.

I think range as a dimension of gameplay to consider is currently being eroded much like MP economy, enmity, dispelling, applying status effects shielding for prey, positionals etc.

Hopefully they have something equally or more engaging to take it's place, or else it may feel like there's less to consider at every level of gameplay.

It's extra fun because Earthly Star is now unusable while soloing FATEs, quest battles, and exploration zones unless you want to pull every mob within 20 yards down on your head. It's cool though, AST wasn't lacking for personal damage, right?

Lazy raid design is actually making the rest of the game worse.