A summary of healer issues

[Semirhage]

Quick question:

Was WMH's SB rotation acceptable for a modern Healer?
(Some of you know where I'm going with this, but I'm just curious...)

No.

/10char

[ForsakenRoe]

Quick question:

Was WMH's SB rotation acceptable for a modern Healer?
(Some of you know where I'm going with this, but I'm just curious...)

Whether I think it was acceptable or not is neither here nor there because it had the bad-lily system. To say 'WHM SB but with the Misery system too' is something I can't speak for because it didn't exist, and is just theorycraft. I'd like to think that it would be decent enough though. Filler, DOT, Assize, Aero-3 can be thought of as a Phlegma of sorts, and then Misery, especially now that it's damage neutral.

Rather than asking 'is it acceptable for a modern healer', consider that the nonhealer classes have had 4 years of evolution upon 'their' SB version. The answer to the question then is another question: 'was WHM's SB damage rotation a good baseline to build off of going into SHB', to which I'd say the answer is 'yeh, if you fix the trash lily system it had potential'. After all, having 'an extra GCD (Aero3/Banish) that you use every (24/15) seconds' and 'a DOT (Aero2/Rescaled-Dia) that you use every (18/12)' is not exactly too far from one another in terms of design space, only in terms of numerical balance, so it'd be a bit hypocritical of me to say something quite similar to my own design idea is 'not acceptable', instead I'll just say it was an acceptable baseline to add 4 years of fixes and additions to, like the other roles got

[Renathras]

Right right, but that isn't the point:

I was only asking about the DPS rotation.

Then was going to ask specifically WHY. Alongside the thread where I'm looking at rotations, I'm trying to decide how much IS and IS NOT enough.

People here constantly praise SB's design, and when I point out EW WHM actually has a more engaging overall DPS "rotation", get met with derision. But I want to see what exactly that is. Saying ShB and EW suck and SB is better must mean just that or it has no meaning. If people mean SB was better...but just for SCH, then that's a pretty different argument, and calls for a different solution. And note that the praise for HW is often even higher for regulars here.

I also disagree that just because other Jobs have changed means every one should. For all the talk of how Healers were in ARR, most Jobs were different in ARR. Modern NIN is pretty unrecognizable, for example, and post-6.3 PLD is actually closer to ARR PLD than pre-6.3 PLD was. Does every Job really need 25 DPS buttons and at least three Job gauges? I should hope not, because that's why I actually hate most Melee Jobs.

.

EDIT:

You seem to believe this is an objective fact and everyone should see the data the same way, but it's not an objective fact. People find engagement in different things. Some people will find EW WHM more engaging, but personally, I don't find a 30s singular DoT and wasting a healing resource every 20s just so I can get a damage neutral hit every minute to be engaging in the slightest. I found SB more engaging with the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them.

I suppose it depends on what one takes as "more engaging", which is subjective.

What isn't and is objective is that EW WHM has more non-Glare GCDs per minute than SB WHM had non-Stone GCDs per minute. It is objectively factual that SB WHM, in a situation where minimal healing was required, had less non-Stone casts per minute/had more nukespam than EW WHM does. Though the difference is slight, it's there and objectively true.

I do agree people find enjoyment in different things, but it's in vogue around here to insist that doesn't matter.

[Aravell]

and when I point out EW WHM actually has a more engaging overall DPS "rotation"

You seem to believe this is an objective fact and everyone should see the data the same way, but it's not an objective fact. People find engagement in different things. Some people will find EW WHM more engaging, but personally, I don't find a 30s singular DoT and wasting a healing resource every 20s just so I can get a damage neutral hit every minute to be engaging in the slightest. I found SB more engaging with the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them.

[ty_taurus]

It's more that what people are referencing as the strong point in Stormblood's design wasn't the actual kits themselves, because they were a mixed bag, but rather the feel and flow of most jobs' complexity. It wasn't as punishing as Heavensward was, but at the same time, still retained a modest level of nuance that allowed performing your job well to feel rewarding. Despite this, there were still clear pain points for each healer. What would be ideal would be using that as a reference point to build something more fresh and new for the healers.

In terms of White Mage's old DPS tools, the main thing that changes outside of Afflatus Misery is having 2 DoTs at 18 seconds and 24 seconds instead of 1 DoT at 30 seconds. That's all that changes, and while that's not nothing, it brings us back to the argument brought up back then, that White Mage already lost Aero as a third DoT of 15 seconds, even though it had been power crept at that point, and Fluid Aura which had its damage removed. And Roe also has a point that the healers are missing 4 years worth of evolution to their offensive library. Mind you, that evolution doesn't necessarily need to be new branches or components to your gameplay. It could just be additional finishers on stuff, like enabling some type of follow up nuke after Presence of Mind or something.

[Renathras]

I guess I just don't get the desire in general for continued evolution of damage dealing on a non-damage dealing class, especially since I liked the DPS Jobs before they had their "evolutions", most of them I honestly prefer the old versions of them, which had a lot less "just here for the sake of it" type stuff, so I don't see those as positives. For example, I liked NIN better before Ninki, which seems to be a gauge there just to introduce something else to juggle for no reason other than to just have something else to juggle. (Like, seriously, instead of that, just make Ninjutsu 15 sec CD and the Job would be better, numbers adjusted for the change in burst aside, and for the life of me, I'm not sure who thought they needed a stinger attack on Raiju but that had to be used before any other ability or weaponskills...like...WHY??)

Part of it definitely comes down to player preference, and I don't just mean in "simple vs complex", but also type of rotation. People like pointing to Melee, which is why I started a thread about rotations that no one seems interested in touching, so I'll just talk about it here instead, I guess. /shrug Melee all have different formats of rotation (though all based on the core "combo" system, with MNK being the one to most stretch it). Within this framework, there are five variations, each with a different level of rigidity. DRG is extremely rigid, for example, while the opposite end of the spectrum is...I dunno, RPR maybe? RPR has this weird "rigid but/or flexible" thing going. I don't think any of the Melee have a proc system, though, unless RPR does (since I haven't touched it). The rest aren't all rigid, but they're planned. Like abilities give the exact same amount of gauge ever time, etc. It's like how PLD technically has a "proc" after Royal Authority combos (two, in fact), but they happen with 100% certainty every time (empowering a damage spell cast and granting three stacks of Atonement), so there's no randomness.

To wit, some people like randomness. DNC, for example, as you said before, I'd hate, but people like you love because it requires constant adjustment. That's not really a matter of complexity as much as it is some people prefer rote and others...well, not. I actually am kinda in the middle in the sense that I like having a baseline pattern, but one that is flexible and allows moving around pieces of it. It's why I like post-6.3 PLD and why I like SMN. It's not the "braindead", it's that both have a "set" rotation, but the pieces of the rotation can be moved around. PLD vs GNB is a good example of this, since GNB is on a rigid schedule with a set rotation within that schedule vs PLD which has a set rotation, but where you put your Holy Spirits is kind of up to you and can be anywhere from the GCD after Royal to after the 1st Atonement, the 2nd, the 3rd, the next Fast Blade or the next Riot Blade. Even the burst phase is "Use Goring, Confetior combo, and then '3 other GCDs, 1 of which should be an empowered Holy Spirit'". The "optimal" rotation is to use FoF/Req whenever they come up, no matter where in the combo you are, and just roll with it. While the rotation is static, it has pieces that can be moved around within that static framework. But unlike something with random procs to it, the rotation itself is always the same. Contrast if the buffed Holy Spirit proc had a 25% chance from procing off of any of the Riot Blade + Atonement 6 GCD strikes, such that you'd get random uses of it. I wouldn't care much for that, but some people might. WAR is vaguely like that (just barely) in the sense of the Beast Gauge spenders knocking some off the Infuriate CD. While that's still pretty set, the it does change when Infuriate comes up, making a slightly moving target. (Best example I could think of since the Tanks don't really...have...a proc based representative.)

I don't think Casters actually have a GNB/DRG representative of rigid rotation, since BLM has procs to react to, RDM does as well, and SMN is like PLD with a set overall rotation whose pieces can be moved around.

This is probably also part of why I dislike DoTs in general - as they CAN'T be moved around, they're either up or they're down, and you refresh them on their duration, not before outside of situational circumstances - and even when they are tied into the Job, it's generally just to make it into a proc system - which I dislike even more.

The only time I don't mind them is when they're things like Sonic Break or Circle of Scorn, where I just treat them as a damage ability with a CD instead since...that's how they're used anyway. Like I wouldn't mind WHM having an 18 and 24 sec DOT if the way they worked were having 18 and 24 sec CDs as well. Then I'd just treat them like pseudo-Plegma/Assize type abilities and be done with them, which isn't great, but is at least not as annoying as the current system with the game's UI that makes seeing when they fell off completely obnoxious.

I don't find "the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them" engaging. I find it tedious and annoying.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't find "the shorter DoT timers and being required to manage them" engaging. I find it tedious and annoying.

Okay. Again. Would you still feel this way if they were simple (soft) CDs, with the available frequency of (unpenalized) applications shown on your hotbar?

...Because that can be done, just fine. Plugins have done it for ~5 years now.

(Which would then leave only the issue of whether you despise rotating in actions other than your filler attack.)

To wit, some people like randomness.

Yet, there is a huge difference between "Hit the flashing thing," which can feel rote, and "Find the way of meeting the present, shifted context that best sets up the upcoming, more known circumstance," which tends to actually feel adaptive.

[ForsakenRoe]

Okay. Again. Would you still feel this way if they were simple (soft) CDs, with the available frequency of (unpenalized) applications shown on your hotbar?

If you have two skills, one a 15s DOT that is on the GCD (50p per tick, total 250), and one a 15s CD GCD that is 250p, the function is pretty similar in a training dummy scenario. They're both 'use once every 15s for 250p. But the DOT comes with additional nuances. You can use it on multiple enemies at once with multidotting (assuming your AOE skill doesn't dwarf it at certain target counts), you can purposely clip it if you need to for...whatever reason (eg if it has on-cast damage like Dia and you're needing to move), and you can make the call to not refresh it, if it's duration won't fully tick. As an example, in P12S doorboss, there's a point just before limit cut where the DOT falls off. I don't know if it's worth refreshing it there or not because the boss jumps before it resolves, but I've not looked close enough to see how many ticks I'd get out of it (and whether that beats another Glare). Dia being a standard 30s CD GCD ala Goring/Sonic would not have that option, it'd just be 715 potency burst and the question answers itself instantly

I think because of this, the issue to solve, that of 'DOTs are annoying to manage', should not have been addressed with 'convert some to burst hits, and consolidate others so there's only one DOT per class left'. Rather, improving the UI that allows you to track DOTs, would probably have been better. Like if you could see 'only your DOTs' on the enemy frames, emnity list, whatever it's called. Hang on, it's Paint time again:


Being as we're mostly asking for 3 DOTs as a maximum for healer redesigns (mostly), this means that the number of icons shown on the list would be, at maximum, those 3 DOT icons. Other player debuffs (Trick, Mug, ally DOTs) or your own effects that are not DOTs (Chain Strat for example) would also not be shown

oh edit: in case it's not clear, this is two examples in one picture. If you're a SCH, the WHM Dia would not be visible to you. Instead you'd see the Bio/Miasma/SF icons (if they're present) on both targets, similarly as a WHM you wouldn't see the SCH stuff, just whether or not each enemy has Dia on them.

[Shurrikhan]

Not sure I've seen that before. Does it have a recharge? Is there any ability in the game right now that works like that?

Some of the actions in the game that work like that:

• Storm's Edge
• Dia
• Bio
• Combust
• Eukrasian Dosis
• Twin Snakes
• Demolish
• Disembowel
• Chaos Thrust
• Higanbana
• Shadow of Death
• Whirl of Death
• Venomous Bite
• Stormbite
• Thunder I/III
• Thunder II/IV

Back up just two expansion and that list more than doubles in length.

At anything less than the most stringent definition, Afflatus Misery, Wyrmwind Thrust, RDM's combo, etc., are also soft CDs. They have an expected frequency of access but allow for that timing to be rushed or delayed.

Oh, so you're just saying "Would you like it better if it was what we have right now"?

Except, of course, for having completely removed that allegedly crippling "UI" issue for which you previously (though not exclusively) condemned DoTs...

one of the big problems with DoTs - no matter the game - has always been the UI.

...and instead...

leave only the issue of whether you despise rotating in actions other than your filler attack.

___

Glad we know now though, at least, that anything beyond 'that would give more things to press every so often, and therefore earns my disgust' is probably just a roundabout excuse.

Clarity is good.

[Renathras]

...

I've never held the position of "despise rotating in actions other than your filler attack". That's been a caricature used incessantly to discredit everything I say, but is just a made up straw man. It's so easy to disprove, too, considering how many times I've proposed SGE have a rotation just like MCH. Which I've done a lot. If my position was "I don't ever want to press a second button", I wouldn't propose a 1-2-3 +something rotation.

Not sure what you mean by "just a roundabout excuse", as it's never a position I've held.

I don't believe the focus of Healers should be DPS rotations or complex DPS rotations, but I don't have an opposition to having other buttons to press that do damage. I've not advocated for Assize or Misery to be removed, for example, and even on WHM, my own proposals have been to get Holy into the single-target rotation. Again, why would I do that if I was opposed to ever pressing another button?

If people didn't believe in these random lies that I've never said as if they were gospel truth, we'd get a lot farther in these conversations.