Raiding is becoming less and less optional

[Payotz]

Which by the way, as an aside, Bahamut is a main reason I always laugh at people who say this game is too easy. I played WoW for 12 years and I never remembered a single raid in that game more challenging than T9. Even at level 80 in 480+ gear, it’s very difficult to solo because of unavoidable instakill mechanics. Or it’s avoidable in a very tight window.

Hell, dungeons in this game expect more of you than anything in WoW ever did. Again, because pretty much everything in FFXIV from 50 on up, has instakill mechanics. Dungeons like Cutter’s Cry and Pharos Sirius spring to mind. There are no low level dungeons like that anywhere in WoW. At least when I played.

The only exception to this was Cataclysm. And everyone complained it was too hard.

95% of the game's too easy, and T9 unsynced is soloable with the next raid tier gear OR a tank.
You just have to literally run around the map baiting meteors, grab golems and feed them meteors and then burst them down.
Then once Nael comes down you just burst HER down.

Don't compare something that's made for Hardcore players to something that people literally sleep through.
That's literally comparing Extremes to the lvl 20 Ifrit trial. The game does not EVEN force you to go through Extreme/Savage/Ultimate ever since Coil for story, let alone to progress MSQ.

If anything, this game needs the Story Mode content to be harder so people would actually press 1-2-3 rather than 3-3-3-3-3-3 and actually play the video game.
Yes, there are people out there clearing the latest "hardest" 24 man without knowing a rotation, not knowing their kit, and just spamming Physick and Cure 1 while dying 30 times.
And yes, those people also cleared pre-nerfed, no echo, at launch, Orbonne while doing the exact same thing.

If they can do it, then your "12 years in WoW" ass can do it too.

[Selova]

I played WoW for 12 years and I never remembered a single raid in that game more challenging than T9.

Yogg-Saron 0 Lights in Ulduar, Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands, Mu'ru and Kil'jaeden in Sunwell Plateau are just a few examples of fights that make T9 look like a joke. Considering you mentioned earlier how you've never raided before and have apparently been playing WoW for 12 years, Gonna have to press X for doubt.

[Videra]

Yogg-Saron 0 Lights in Ulduar, Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands, Mu'ru and Kil'jaeden in Sunwell Plateau are just a few examples of fights that make T9 look like a joke. Considering you mentioned earlier how you've never raided before and have apparently been playing WoW for 12 years, Gonna have to press X for doubt.

Hard agree. Seems REAL suspect when someone says they've played WoW and don't remember a single raid more challenging than T9, and they also say they've never raided. :think:

Also, it's just kind of a universal fact that WoW's raiding is harder than FFXIV's by a country mile. Even a recent example in Tomb of Sargeras during legion, while numerous fights could be ascribed to this, you can just look at Mythic Kil'Jaeden for the best one. Reaaaally wish FFXIV players would banish their misconception that Savage is harder than WoW's raiding.

[Avatre]

None of the 24-man alliance raids are challenging...if you're paying even half attention to it. YoRHa for example, you just need to watch the animations for one of the boss since his attacks are all the same name. Oh, he's raising one fist and it's on fire...better move to the other side of the platform. Oh, no he has both raised up above, lets get to the front and be near the middle line. Both are to the sides now? Best get back and to the sides.

99% of mechanics in the alliance raids you have seen before, the rest of it...if you can't tell what will happen based on the name(Dual Side, or even Front and Back...just as an example) then you might be playing a game with too much(not really honestly) going on at once.

[Colt47]

I think the OP might be concerned that 24 man raids will become a requirement to progress the MSQ, and therefore get to the next expansion. We sort of ran into this ARR quest gate problem caused by the excessively long Praetoreum movie slog followed by a huge number of tedious quests afterwards. Getting to Heavensward is/was a feat of patience and fortitude to say the least.

However, ARR Gate wouldn't really be made worse if a 24 man raid was involved. The big issue with the ARR Gate is the number of quests. A single 24 man raid that is a component of the MSQ would by nature have to be a face roll in comparison to the side dungeons, EX fights, and Savage mode stuff and comparable to WoD at the very least. If a group is dying in World of Darkness to the Ahriman boss they basically deserve it so not much really to say on it.

I still empathize with the whole sense of 24 mans being a game of herding cats through a slag pit in an elaborate lemmings game, though. Half the time there is always some player, who I call "little timmy", who runs off floppy armed into the jaws of death repeatedly for no actual sane reason. It's sort of a constant that exists to maintain the equalibrium between Tim the Toolman tailor omni crafter, Ken the Crack Savage Commando, and that person that keeps running hunts all day and night named Bob, who also sometimes runs maps.

[negiman4]

This whole thread is ridiculous and a waste of time. Crystal Tower being required in MSQ is a one-time deal because of how the MSQ currently ties in with it. They aren't going to make this the norm in the future. Regardless, each of the floors in CT take like 15 minutes to do. We've all been running alliance roulette for years now, and all we've ever gotten in it was crystal tower. How is that any different from being "required" to do it? Chances are, you probably already unlocked CT like everyone else. I get it, I do. I hate Crystal Tower. I hate most 24 man content. But everyone at least unlocks/completes it once. 99% of players are going to inevitably unlock Crystal Tower anyway. So what's the big fucking deal?! Insinuating that this is going to be a trend where SE is going to start requiring people to craft or play lord of verminion or go fishing or whatever irrelevant content in order to progress MSQ is absolute nonsense, and borders on conspiracy theory territory. SE isn't being run by lizard-people, folks.

This move makes 100% sense given the context of the MSQ story. Raiding is, always has been, and always will be completely optional. Alliance raids are not raids. They're just normal noob dungeons with more people. That's literally it. If you think that's "raiding", you're just wrong. Period. End of story. Bye bye. See you later!

[Videra]

This whole thread is ridiculous and a waste of time. Crystal Tower being required in MSQ is a one-time deal because of how the MSQ currently ties in with it. They aren't going to make this the norm in the future. Regardless, each of the floors in CT take like 15 minutes to do. We've all been running alliance roulette for years now, and all we've ever gotten in it was crystal tower. How is that any different from being "required" to do it? Chances are, you probably already unlocked CT like everyone else. I get it, I do. I hate Crystal Tower. I hate most 24 man content. But everyone at least unlocks/completes it once. 99% of players are going to inevitably unlock Crystal Tower anyway. So what's the big fucking deal?! Insinuating that this is going to be a trend where SE is going to start requiring people to craft or play lord of verminion or go fishing or whatever irrelevant content in order to progress MSQ is absolute nonsense, and borders on conspiracy theory territory. SE isn't being run by lizard-people, folks.

This move makes 100% sense given the context of the MSQ story. Raiding is, always has been, and always will be completely optional. Alliance raids are not raids. They're just normal noob dungeons with more people. That's literally it. If you think that's "raiding", you're just wrong. Period. End of story. Bye bye. See you later!

Hey look, someone who is factually right.

[Lium]

This whole thread is ridiculous and a waste of time. Crystal Tower being required in MSQ is a one-time deal because of how the MSQ currently ties in with it. They aren't going to make this the norm in the future. Regardless, each of the floors in CT take like 15 minutes to do. We've all been running alliance roulette for years now, and all we've ever gotten in it was crystal tower. How is that any different from being "required" to do it? Chances are, you probably already unlocked CT like everyone else. I get it, I do. I hate Crystal Tower. I hate most 24 man content. But everyone at least unlocks/completes it once. 99% of players are going to inevitably unlock Crystal Tower anyway. So what's the big fucking deal?! Insinuating that this is going to be a trend where SE is going to start requiring people to craft or play lord of verminion or go fishing or whatever irrelevant content in order to progress MSQ is absolute nonsense, and borders on conspiracy theory territory. SE isn't being run by lizard-people, folks.

This move makes 100% sense given the context of the MSQ story. Raiding is, always has been, and always will be completely optional. Alliance raids are not raids. They're just normal noob dungeons with more people. That's literally it. If you think that's "raiding", you're just wrong. Period. End of story. Bye bye. See you later!

Here’s the thing, dude. You have no idea what the devs are going to do in the future. Zero. The point of this thread was positing a question of what if in the future, the devs make raids with MSQ relevant plots that become required. What if CT is only the first example of what’s to come? I already pointed out Ivalice is required to unlock the relic weapon because, again, it was story relevant. Who is to say future raids will not be story relevant? No one but the devs can say that. Certainly not you.

Sure, CT is easy and faceroll now, but future raids may not be. Especially if they are current. Nowhere in the OP was I talking about optional content like fishing or some shit like that. You just took that and ran with it for some weird reason.

This is an MMO. MMOs are driven by metrics. What if there comes a time when they want to increase time-played and so they start gating the MSQ behind normal raids or alliance raids? And before you start saying THAT’LL NEVER HAPPEN, it absolutely could. They could gate anything they want.

In WoW, unlocking flying used to be as simple as paying a vendor at max level. Then suddenly, there came a new dev team with new metrics, and flying became a huge grind to unlock.

Philosophies change. The future is unknown. One-time things can become permanent. If you can’t see that’s what I was really saying, then you are being willfully ignorant. Hence, pot meet kettle.

[Avatre]

Sure, CT is easy and faceroll now, but future raids may not be. Especially if they are current. Nowhere in the OP was I talking about optional content like fishing or some shit like that. You just took that and ran with it for some weird reason.

Yeah, the raids when they are current aren't faceroll easy, but guess what. Practice, practice, practice. Run them more than once, and you will start seeing the patterns. You will start seeing the visual cues when you aren't staring at your hotbars the entire time. You will start to see that the people who have ran it a dozen times are moving early, and avoiding 99.99999% of the avoidable damage(some will even move JUST as they need to, barely avoiding damage).

I'm not saying everyone needs to enjoy the content, but honestly, just paying attention to the game is enough to get you through the raids without much trouble. Here are the most used mechanics in ANY of the raids.

Parts of the floor glowing/doing something weird under you? Better move to a non-glowing/normal floor.
Arrows on the ground? Best make sure not to get thrown into a wall.
Parts of the wall behind you showing activity, while other parts aren't? Stand infront of the parts that are doing nothing.
Someone has a circle over their head, with 4 arrows pointing inwards(or in the case of Syrcus Tower final boss, a blue-ish black orb over head with a similarly coloured circle under them)? Stand inside the circle WITH THEM, unless there are two or more at the same time, then NEVER be in two at once if you want to live.
Got a Sims like diamond that's red over your head? Get away from people(your circle can overlap other circles, just be sure your character isn't in two at once)
Got a purple diamond over your head(World of Darkness 5-Headed Dragon boss)? Another stack marker, stand with the person with it to spread the damage.
A green gurgling puddle on the ground(WoD 5-Headed again)? Stand in it to prevent slimes from spawning.
Doing Exdeath? When he sucks energy from the void, if it's Blizzard keep running until it goes off to not be frozen. If it's Fire, stop EVERYTHING until the debuff drops to not take any damage. If it's Thunder get away from him or get paralysed.


And all of those are from normal raids(sure the 24-man raids don't have a harder version than week 1 of release, but you will see a LOT of those same mechanics in the 8-man raids, and even dungeons to some extent).

[Schwarzwind]

In my opinion 24 man and 8 man story mode raids should have never been not part of the MSQ. Their story most of the time ties in a lot with the MSQ anyways. Except for the Dun Scaith and Nier raids which have no real connection to anything MSQ related until now. Maybe this will change in the future somehow. I also do not really see a huge problem in CT and Ivalice raids becoming mandatory because 24 man and 8 man story modes are actually not very difficult to clear. It might take a few wipes until most people get how mechanics work but they are not impossible to clear with random groups. I would agree should savage modes or ultimates suddenly become mandatory for MSQ progression but that is very unlikely.