Ranged DPS jobs - disappointing?

[Eliadil]

The thing with "ranged", and bard more specifically is that we went from an expansion that had a really high synergy meta (Stormblood basically made Bard and Dragoon a must-have due to how absurdly well they performed together) to Shadowbringers where the devs nerfed almost every synergy or party buff available because they were afraid of the same scenario happening again. As a result some jobs went from top tier to bottom of the barrel, but one thing to note is that every job is still playable and viable in every kind of content.

Just so you know, Bard was really powerfull for the last Ultimate content (well on the first two phases at least, but they're usually seen as the "hardest" phases of the fight), just because double target dot is a thing. And it's recent content, meaning you never know when a job can really shine. The current tier of Savage Raids are also very unforgiving for Melee DPS due to forced downtime and mechanics forcing you to move away from the boss... I could use a ton more examples of ranged dps bringing something that can really help your party. They just will not carry in terms of "rough" damage numbers.

Tbh, I'd even argue that playing a high damage job isn't the most important thing. Seeing your current level, you maybe have figured this, but mechanics are way, way more important than being at the absolute top of the dps chart. A bad samuraï that dies all the time is more a detriment to your team than you not being able to do 18k dps on Bard. And this will not change especially since you have one class that excels at doing mechanics, and you have some party buff that are definitely worth using (never underestimate the power of self dispell, or 20% healing buff on your tank).

And for your current issue with being on the low end of the damage range, I wouldn't worry too much about it overall. If the difference really gets noticed and becomes a handicap, Ranged Physical will get buffed quickly.

[Tyrius]

Well as you are not level 80 bard you also have to take into account tanks that are being item level synced with you and have the best possible Ilvl for the content you are doing as you are still leveling I dont think you have that which also plays a part at 80 you do get alot more dps tools and find you wont be struggling to beat a tank at dps (unless its xenos hes a beast) also if you just dont like the flavor of the job then try machinest no song management just managing your battery and heat to summon a robot to punch things it all comes down to what flavor you prefer never stress number at not max level that would be like you saying wow i suck as a hunter my tank is trashing my dps as he is in full heirloom gear and your in just normal leveling gear

[Claire_Pendragon]

to OP, out of the physical ranged atm, BRD has the most multitasking, so if its not ur cup of tea, u may want to try MCH. Its more selfish DPS, and less multitasking.

[Vyrerus]

This thread makes me think of Bard back in 2.0 when it got access to Blood for Blood and Internal Release for +20% damage and +20% crit rate on top of Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye. It had its time in the sun for a rather long time. Till Heavensward start really, similar to PLD. Back in the saddle of top shelf in short order though, though if you ignored the casting stance when it was initially launched, then you still could pull good numbers at the start of Heavensward too. Then it set in the meta from like 3.2 till like... idk, current day? However much people say to disregard that term and ideation, just the fact that Bard has for so long been a top tier pick, really has the idea of the thread ring hollow to me.

As far as rebalancing it just so it doesn't feel bad in one phase of UCoB or anything like that is probably something that will never happen. SE has shown us that they never rebalance for old content, not for the increase in raw potency, not for the introduction of Direct Hit, and they certainly ain't gonna do it for one fight for one job, regardless of the status of that fight.

Another reason at lower levels that tanks sorta roll over DPS is that they have more direct hit proportionally to other stats, due to Direct Hit literally being slotted into accuracy gear, which tanks needed more of back in the day, what with needing to make frontal melee accuracy requirements.

Just keep on striving on BRD, you'll be fine by the 70s.

[Akiudo]

snip

soooo.... bard was meta for so long, it doesn't matter if its utter crap today ? great argument...

while we're add it

bard during arr literally was running in a "no contest" category, there simply was no second physical ranged to fill that slot, and back than indeed the fights very clearly where designed with the free movement (heck back than it really was free) physical in mind, you had bosses/adds that where imune to either magic/physical damage at a rate clearly designed in a way for one caster and 3 physical dps, you had adds you just had to kite, and refresh (or mana song back than) was simply necessary, all this is true, however this had nothing to do with bard being overtuned, it simply ran in a category no other class was even competing in. its like making a game where monk is the only melee and than saying monk is op, literally everyone takes monk for the melee lb.

come heavensward mch actually ended up as strong if not stonger than bard, it was just that nearly no one wanted to play it, which in no small part was due to mch simply starting out way to weak, followed by a buffing arms race between bard/mch

-> stormblood may very well be when bard was at its most op aside from the original arr release(which got rectified in like week one) , i'm not even gonna deny this, however, and this is the fun part, saying "see, bard was so op" and using this as an argument for why a bard dealing actual damage breaks the game ignores so much the things bard lost. refresh in its current form would be useless, as mp regen got buffed after its removal, but back than it was every bit as big if not bigger than a redmage rezz, its other defensive cooldowns where stronger, and to top it all of bard scaling itself was way more exponential with the way reportoire proccs worked back than (i.e. on dot crits) instead of the fixed rate we have today. , also again it was mostly running no contest either way, as mch was loathed.

oh, and heres the other fun part, you know what also was allways meta ? dragoon, that allways gets conveniently ignored that it was only the extreme synergy between bard/dragoon that actually pushed bard over the edge. bard could deal exactly the same dps it did during heavensward before exponential crit scaling for final tier bis gear kicks in, and just due to the removal of the 5% piercing debuff+bards lesser reliance on crit nowadays paired with the removal of refresh it would be so much weaker a pick than back during stormblood its not funny.

was bard allways meta ? aside from a patch or two , yes. but bard also was running for its rooster position in a "no contest" category 3/5 of the time and still owed this meta spot not purely to its own strengths but also to the synergy it had with another class

[Vyrerus]

snapple

Bard in ARR was running in the DPS category, against all other DPS. Role competition is something that is contemporary and did not exist back then, in the form that is current. Back in ARR, for quite a bit longer than one week, BRD outperformed both melees and BLM quite easily, giving SMN a run for its money. It also had the healer LB3, allowing it to reverse wipes. On top of that, the only group wide buffs meant for more than one party member as well as the support songs. It was at such a high level of damage and utility that people would rather take two bards than diversify classes for the limit break speed.

MCH only ever caught up to BRD, never surpassed it or took its spot. In the beginning of Stormblood they still shared the limelight, but when SMN was buffed, it was MCH that was thrown out of the comp, not BRD.

DRG was not always meta. It was kicked out high end raiding during Final Coil due to its low Mdef, not being able to activate positional combos in T11, and losing out in every way to Ninja and Trick Attack. That's why it was given Battle Litany and buffed twice going through the end of 2.5 into Heavensward. BRD only needed it in party to parse high, not to be a top tier party slot pick.

BRD has always been a top tier pick. It can wane for a while, if you'd even really call its current state waning. The situations brought up in thread are places where the game wasn't rebalanced due to how SE operates, not how the job actually performs in contemporary content.

[Akiudo]

Bard in ARR was running in the DPS category, against all other DPS. Role competition is something that is contemporary and did not exist back then, in the form that is current. Back in ARR, for quite a bit longer than one week, BRD outperformed both melees and BLM quite easily, giving SMN a run for its money. It also had the healer LB3, allowing it to reverse wipes. On top of that, the only group wide buffs meant for more than one party member as well as the support songs. It was at such a high level of damage and utility that people would rather take two bards than diversify classes for the limit break speed.

bard in the very beginning of coil was too strong, that i won't deny but this was also literally the very first real literation of this game, it got nerfed hard (and rightfully) which set us up in a way you wanted exactly ONE OF EVERY CLASS THE GAME HAD TO OFFER (well, blackmage OR summoner, but that was only because smn was a last second addition).

during the last two tiers of coil alone we literally had a boss were you were kiting adds basically without break, something neither blackmage nor smn could ever have done, aswell as a boss with an add phase where one add only could take magic damage and one only physical which clearly was designed on a level of 3 physical damage dealers/1 caster, also mana was way more tight than today and the only class that could give mana was bard, saying fights weren't designed with a physical ranged (i.e. bard as no competition) pick as a given back than is ludicrous . Sorry but why do you think we got mch as dps after ninja (and smn, if you want to respect that it was more or less an afterthought) ? you think that was pure chance we didn't get another caster ? or a "physical ranged" without support capabilitys that simply did a shitton of damage and nothing else ? we got what we did exactly because bard had no role competition, that role may have been "class that can give mana to heals if they run low" but it sure as hell was role on its own. saying there where no roles just because square didn't hand out a marker that said "this is your physical ranged, he does physical damage in range" really is delusional.

the heavensward bit about about mch only every catching up also ain't true, it pretty much was a back and forth between both classes, its just nearly no one was playing mch, which leads into stormblood and yes, the point where even i admitted bard was probably as its most op (aside from a simple "there really is no one that can give mana aside from bard, i.e. arr), however at this point we had exponentional crit scaling as to differentiate it from direct hit, and dragoon on top of giving piercing down had a group crit buff, which was even more usefull for bard as the way bard mechanics worked (worked, not work anymore) for one profitted way more from crit than even any other class and two bard had a permanent crit buff (which at 3/8 of the time its now active would need amounts of crit not nearly reachable again unless we go on for 6 or 7 raidtiers per addon) which is also why in the end again bard beat out mch, exponentional crit scaling, amplyfied even further by dragoon, the one class that not only had the piercing down but put up a group crit buff for good measure. (and in this case absolutely necessarely because no one at this point needed bard for tp, and mana one could handle if carefull aswell so yes, at this point it was about dps and nothing else)

the last bit again is just as petty as the first time, if you strife for balance than any class being in a bad spot is one to many, thats like if warriors now lost shake it off and did 400 dps less than they do right now and everything people would say about it was "oh well, they were meta so long and often, just let them suck completly it doesn't matter"

[Vyrerus]

b

Bard never got nerfed. The only thing that got nerfed in ARR was Subclass actions. Brought down from 20% to 10% to try to help DRG not get stomped on so badly by MNK, BRD, and NIN. And no, this didn't set it up so that parties sought 1 of everything for any reason beyond Limit break gain. What happened was they buffed other classes to catch them up, particularly MNK, BLM, and DRG.

The only adds BRD ever had to kite in Coils were Renauds in Turn 7, and either healer or SMN could do this, though SMN, BRD, and SCH were the best picks due to instant cast spells/skills. SMN was rather fine at it, actually.

As for why we got MCH next, well yes, obviously we got MCH to try and get a class other than BRD for people to play since it was such a strong pick. It's not coincidental at all, and you've misunderstood my point. What's funny though is, they made every ranged into casters in Heavensward, basically to blunt just how absurdly powerful BRD had been, along with taking away its access to healer LB3(though this was partially at the playerbase's demand, since it was an insanely popular job and many people wanted to be able to DPS LB on it). With making them all casters, they were all casters and played similarly, despite different trait quirks. It wouldn't be until later that SE would decide that there needed to be explicit distinction between ranged physical and ranged magic. Of course the implementation of casting was the first time BRD suffered, pretty much the only time it has suffered, but it was rectified within one major patch, and until then as long as you simply ignored the casting stance, you still did damage comparable to other DPS, albeit slightly lower.

It's delusional to say there was a back and forth between MCH and BRD. BRD stomped MCH for almost all of Heavensward, along with every other DPS, and like I said before, once MCH did get good, it only rose up to boot the casters out of the comp, not BRD. Which it should've been competing with, but hey, at the time different jobs regardless of role = faster LB, so it wasn't competing back then either.

The reason it's ok to let jobs wane is to get people to play other ones. That is a goal of the devs. They rarely do it with nerfs, and handle it by buffing other jobs. What my point is, is that they don't cater to old content pretty much at all, and there's no need for them to cater to specific DPSes in older situations. Job balance is like a pendulum, and no job ever gets the stage forever.

Though it's funny that you mention WAR, because that was a case where they did see it as too powerful and directly nerfed it, only to get massive backlash about it. Which is understandable, because direct nerfs to a particular job suck. And that's something BRD has never experienced.

Anyway, the point of the thread is done, and so am I.

[Rasikko]

I was gonna give my input, then I realized it's another BRD thread.

[Cetonis]

Bard is particularly weak at lower levels, and the reason for that is simply that SE doesn't give a damn about lower level balance. Most jobs are way stronger at lower levels now than they were back when 50 was the level cap, while Bard is only slightly stronger at best (may actually be weaker come to think of it), just as a collateral effect of what skills SE has targeted for buffs, nerfs and reworks over the years.

The ranged dps do less than other roles on purpose, as if they were just-as-good then static groups would always aim to take 2 ranged, 1 caster and 1 melee, because all other things being equal you'd just take the most mobile option for that fourth slot. A situation where groups either take a second melee or caster, and aim to avoid 2 ranged, is preferable. There's a lot of griping about whether or not ranged really need to be held as far down as they are, but the core logic of making them behind a bit is sound.

Crabby vets like me are also mad about the gutting of the flexibility / complexity of ranged jobs relative to 4.x Bard, and then you have the people who think pushing wild demands for Bard to be split into two jobs is constructive, so there's a lot of complain-about-ranged going on here and elsewhere, while the devs have either been silent or tone-deaf about ranged for pretty much the entire lifespan of the game.