Tanking Adjustments - PLD/WAR

[Daniel_Fury]

Then how about changing the following 4 abilities,
Aegis Boon=Improves block rate by 25% when active
Phalanx====10% chance to improves block rate by 25% for 5 seconds
Shield Bash=Improves block rate by 25% for 10 seconds
War Drum==Improves block rate by 50% for 10 seconds

Working on block is great, but I find the problem not to be Block Rate (Blocking all physical attacks every 1/3 of a minute is fine by me) but the Block Damage Reduction. When blocking enemies around the same level, there is a huge damage reduction from blocking.
When we fight bosses, the damage reduction from a block is really low. If we reduce damage taken from blocking a hit from an enemy higher level than us, that fixes the issue with taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior.

[Enfarious]

I'm glad we agree lol.

I know those unfortunate moments where people do get one shotted, (my guess is Coin Counter?) and I'm sure every tank has experienced it as part of the learning curve, it sucks. lol

Well, to stay on topic, I only have 2 fixes/addon that I would like to see.

Rampart - Make this deal with M DEF again. I know the elemental resistances help alot, from what I've seen. AoE Rampart your party and less people are going to take damage from AoE attacks, as well as damage reduction for M. Attacks directed at the PLD. This will once again help warrior I guess, so add the M.Def part as a trait.

Greatsword - Alot of people will disagree, but hell, I love greatswords and I miss them so much. That will at least GIVE us a reason to parry and allow our damage output to increase.

Enhanced Rampart(trait) - Adds a bonus to Def & M.Def (or a -P/MDT% reasonable not 90% but not 2% either)and extends duration of Rampart(enough to make it possible to maintain indefinitely or makes it into a remains in effect until reused), this trait only alters the effect on the person that uses the ability. ???

I think adding a few different types of weapons to each job/class would be really nice. Pug/Mnk w/ a staff, Mrd/War w/ a 2-handed Hammer, Cnj/Whm and Thm/Blm essentially already have this too along with their absurd dmg output they can switch between 2handed or 1handed w/ a shield, they shouldn't be the only ones to get something like this, I mean really they already have the stopping power to make other jobs look gimp, to let them have the gear options to boot that's just mean.....

God I'm so good at getting off topic

[Aceofspades]

I like where this thread went, less "blah blah blah, WAR > PLD, or blah blah blah PLD > WAR" and more real disscusion of each jobs strong points and weak points.

I honestly dont think either job is broken tbh. I would love to see more magic damage def but untill SE brings it back we are stuck with stone skin, whm/cnj protect , and elemental resist. now a generic "magic resist" would be awsome to see, even if its in less value then the focused elemental resist. I think at this point its realy hard to dispute the following :

PLD for saftey
WAR for speed

that being said, obviously that was a cookie cutter idea. Can WAR be a saftey tank? sure , with proper gear and ability set up, I think WAR has dog in the fight, PLD's dog will always be much bigger in that particular fight but the same can be said about PLD when it comes to speed fights. If your PLD is good enough to replace one of your multiple healers to allow a solid DD it can effectivly bring speed to a fight. but becuase it lacks in crowd controll what WAR brings to the table it will never be as effciant with multi tasking / tanking outside of "pick n pull" fights. Personally I think the current set up is wise on SE's part. It gives you two variances of tanks for two completly diffrent ocasions. As far as a endurance type of fight, best test I have found is , get to the Princess ASAP when entering CC, and let the guard heal her each time it spawns. where she offers no real damage threat in compairison to other boss mobs, the fact that you can extend that fight indefinatly helps with testing the endurance of your parties set up. Ofcourse you would have to be compleltly bored and have a party willing to agree to do this but it is entirely possable to test an endurance fight. Personaly, and I dont think this will come to anyone as a suprise, but I find in that situation PLD outlasts WAR far superiorly. between stacking regens and superb damage medigation , could tank princes with one healer all nite lols.

[Enfarious]

I like where this thread went, less "blah blah blah, WAR > PLD, or blah blah blah PLD > WAR" and more real disscusion of each jobs strong points and weak points.

I honestly dont think either job is broken tbh. I would love to see more magic damage def but untill SE brings it back we are stuck with stone skin, whm/cnj protect , and elemental resist. now a generic "magic resist" would be awsome to see, even if its in less value then the focused elemental resist. I think at this point its realy hard to dispute the following :

PLD for saftey
WAR for speed

that being said, obviously that was a cookie cutter idea. Can WAR be a saftey tank? sure , with proper gear and ability set up, I think WAR has dog in the fight, PLD's dog will always be much bigger in that particular fight but the same can be said about PLD when it comes to speed fights. If your PLD is good enough to replace one of your multiple healers to allow a solid DD it can effectivly bring speed to a fight. but becuase it lacks in crowd controll what WAR brings to the table it will never be as effciant with multi tasking / tanking outside of "pick n pull" fights. Personally I think the current set up is wise on SE's part. It gives you two variances of tanks for two completly diffrent ocasions. As far as a endurance type of fight, best test I have found is , get to the Princess ASAP when entering CC, and let the guard heal her each time it spawns. where she offers no real damage threat in compairison to other boss mobs, the fact that you can extend that fight indefinatly helps with testing the endurance of your parties set up. Ofcourse you would have to be compleltly bored and have a party willing to agree to do this but it is entirely possable to test an endurance fight. Personaly, and I dont think this will come to anyone as a suprise, but I find in that situation PLD outlasts WAR far superiorly. between stacking regens and superb damage medigation , could tank princes with one healer all nite lols.

This is why speed runs should be abolished though isn't it?
I mean the only reason that boss fights aren't designed for endurance is because someone said, "Let's see how fast people will do this for a reward." then realized that in order to get that "speed" reward the boss can't take 12 mins. to kill so they made it possible to put down bosses well before MP and other things become a problem. And why can't I have pro/shell(want it back) last for 30 mins, it doesn't unbalance things any more than they already are.

Oh GLA/PLD: Increased buff effect(trait) increases effect and duration of buffs by 100%; Dmg mitigation and a pld worth having around?

None of that is to say I want a fight that took as long as Orphan in XIII I almost fell asleep during that, but slowing things down, making it more of a thought out battle than a berserkers frenzy would be nice, at least for those of us that enjoy thinking.

[Possum440]

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

[SionDurant]

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

Theorycrafting is fun for some of us, and I happen to not care so much about money.

[Enfarious]

The fix for a paladin is really quite easy and it doesnt require messing with any other class one bit. I do not use the forums alot, mostly to read and seldom if ever make a post. If the devs want a fix they have only to contact me, being retired i would not require much in the way of compensation.

Many of you have some nice ideas, but a simply more elegant solution for the paladin is out there and i have it, for a price. Remember folks, never give ideas away for free, posting on the forums with your ideas or fixes gives devs free reign in using anything free of charge, just an fyi. I know folks want to help improve the game and i have read some really great ideas in other areas, some implemented by this company, it is up to you how you proceed to enjoy your product.

I'm more than happy to pay for a game I enjoy, why would I try to get them to give me money to make it more enjoyable for me? Usually when someone "works" for you, you pay them. If my ideas get used the only "reward" I want is to be able to say "Hey I suggested that."
What ever happened to people doing things for the good of the community at large? Without thought of reward for themselves? Isn't that what being a part of a community is?
I guess the year of F2P time could also be called my "payment" for any ideas that I happen to offer too.

[Viritess]

I'm not a PLD yet but i've been following the discussion for (near) future reference. And i do support the idea of a more defence/mitigation type tank that doesn't solely rely on HP count. Firstly i hope the Devs are taking notice of the solid ideas in this thread. And secondly i appritiate all of you having an excellent discussion on the topic.

Thank you.

[Aceofspades]

been a while since I have been back to this forum. After much thought, and I would hope a dev picks up this idea and runs with it, introduce a instant cast regen or instant cast cure for PLD. this will fix quite a few problems.
As I continued to develope my PLD and play it in more and more situations. I realized it was far more efficient for me to cast Stone Skin over cure or holy succor. speed of cast and mp cost/ hp conserved was my reasoning for this. And I could be wrong but I am pretty certain most PLDs would agree with me, casting any kind of cure is not effcient enough to be able to rely on in a "do or die" situation, much less for normal use.
Soo , my proposal to "fix" the only real issue I see with PLD is to simply turn holy succor, into an instant cast , with no mp cost and low if any tp cost. this will do 3 things for pld with one stone.

1) Increase enmity: it is no secret that WAR generates more hate overall, even though pld can grab hate faster and hold it for quite some time, with a war trying to steal hate, its only a matter of time before it dose. I belive if the hate generated by a strong holy succor didnt lose its enmity build and was put into instant cast form then plds could simply spam this ablity to help build a fair amount of hate with little effort and no fear of cast interuption.

2)Increase DPS: If Pld could instant cast a cure as strong as holy succor as offten as most other classes can cast second wind, this would essentually allow PLD to replace a healer in what is normally a two healer set up, allowing for more dps in and thus removing any incentive for war/pld due to DPS

3)Increase Survivablity: obviously with holy succor on an instant cast and with no mp cost that would make PLD far more survivable then WAR. WAR as the ablity to self heal at not mp cost and with no cast time due to blood bath and the rampage stance, soo long as it lands its attacks. being that PLD is not desinged to do damage , abilities like ramage and blood bath would do little for pld. However with our high "mind" build instant cast holy succor on a fairly timed coold down would more then even the odds. with PLD having a far higher potential for survivablity already this would make it soo strong as a tank it could SAFELY replace a healer in most instances like discussed above.

another Idea would be to give PLD either a stance or instant cast ability that grants a regen that is constant and dose not end untill the ability is re-casted, much like rampage .

[Duelle]

In short: PLD doesn't need more HP, PLD doesn't need more MP, PLD doesn't need more enmity, PLD doesn't need additional party healing. PLD needs damage mitigation that actually works and is unique (the divine veil update was a huge step in the right direction).

The problem currently in place is that there's nothing in terms of real mitigation that naturally scales as the PLD goes higher in level. Mitigation is also not really supported by itemization (XI had the devs implement a very stupid stat in the form of "Reduces physical/magic damage taken by X%").

I believe the true fix is making defensive stats play a more valuable role for PLD. You don't even need -x% damage reduction as a trait; just give PLD a trait (let's call it "Fearless Focus" or something) that amplifies their defense rating (ie- level 50 trait, multiplies your calculated defense rating vs monsters based on level difference - caps at +10 levels). Maybe x1.1 for +3 levels, x1.3 for +4 levels, x1.7 for +5 levels, and so forth.

I can partially agree here. Tanks should definitely get more out of armor defense ratings. At the same time, I think this value in itself should probably cap at some number - say, against lv50 mobs you need 700 defense to cap mitigation or hit diminishing returns.

An approach similar to this restores PLDs place as the "brick wall" tank for big bad physical mobs, lets Warrior excel vs huge magic hits due to their HP, and we all get to stop relying on one stat to define what makes an appropriate tank.

This opens the door for niche tanking, which I am staunchly against. PLD and WAR should both be viable choices for the tank role. Niche tanks cause more trouble than they're worth down the line.

-Makes blocks an added bonus rather than a necessity. Yes, more frequent blocks would be nice, but I don't think that's a random block should determine your party's fate. Let that be determined by the tank's skill and ability use.

Considering how much of GLA/PLD's skills depend on shield blocks (specially stuff like War Drum), I'm not so much in favor of this.

-Places a strong emphasis on gear progression for PLD - do you choose a DEF piece that will be amplified by your trait, a piece with magic evasion, or a piece with additional enmity? Maybe things become... situational again?

Situational is bad. VERY bad given the current and well-placed limitations on gear swaps.

You might say, "Why not adjust dLvl overall to fix tanking?" All that does is raise the 'tanking' potential for all the 'non-tanks' again. It solves nothing. dLvl is not a bad concept, but the implementation of defensive stats is currently very, very flawed.

Taking level correction (what you call dLvl) to extremes is not a good idea, and something that should be considered when designing content for 2.0.

Level correction screws over numerous other factors. This is why some modern MMOs have "elite", "hero" and "Paragon" brackets for mobs that are designed as part of group content, which then allows the devs to make a monster as tough as they want without level correction throwing a wrench into things and messing up things for people. Ideally, if we have a lv50 dungeon, then all mobs are lv50 under that special bracket that gives them higher stats, higher damage potential and so on without level correction forcing you to stack too much accuracy or +attack to overcome the difference in level. Likewise bosses could have their own bracket that follows the tried and true "dungeon level +3" rule, which again allows the devs to implement as many mechanics as they want in the fight without going overboard on having to overcome level correction.