I miss the days when we didn't need foreknowledge to not die.

[Duskane]

considering most of Eden is rehash primals from ARR alot of there mechanics have been around for ages or are in other fights that too have been around for ages
dont really need to look up anything

[Jirah]

Usually people critique difficulty being too mind numbing and easy not the opposite.

If your doing Eden NORMAL mode of all things you shouldn’t be surprised by stuff like this. The game shouldn’t be a freaking cakewalk. I haven’t wiped in a dungeon in like 2 years because of how inconsequential the mechs are let’s not make the only type of content left that poses a remote challenge to be diluted because people don’t pay attention or don’t wanna wipe. This is game is not for kids and it’s been slowly cutting off its balls because people want a theme park ride ie “it’s a small world after all” not a interactive video game where your roles and actions make a difference.

But agree to disagree

[Maeka]

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.

To the person who said that these mechanics were present in the original Primals..... um, no? There were no spears covering most of the arena in Lv50 Ramuh, unless you mean Extreme Ramuh, which I never had reason to do.

The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

And to the person who goes "is it a flaw to have to die multiple times to clear a normal fight?" .... I'd argue that yes, requiring several deaths to learn a fight is a bit cheap. It makes the whole thing feel cheap, like there's no way you could have known that before going in for the first time.

I think back to more interesting and fun fights like some of the Omega fights back in the day, and some of those were quite reasonable, but yet could still kill you dead rather quickly if you ate the mechanics. (though others were more obtuse)

I don't mind mechanics that are challenging to deal with, but it would be nice if you could SEE what is going on, and have a decent chance of guessing what you should be doing based solely on visual/audio cues, and have enough time to actually react to it without needing movement abilities (which not every class even has outside of Sprint) to get out of in time because they cover nearly the whole arena.

I'll use another example:

The First and Second Eden Fights.

Lots of movement, plenty of instant death... but the mechanics were readable, and if you paid attention, you could guess what was meant ahead of time.

[Mavrias]

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.


The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

I don't mind mechanics that are challenging to deal with, but it would be nice if you could SEE what is going on, and have a decent chance of guessing what you should be doing based solely on visual/audio cues, and have enough time to actually react to it without needing movement abilities (which not every class even has outside of Sprint) to get out of in time because they cover nearly the whole arena.

I'll use another example:

The First and Second Eden Fights.

Lots of movement, plenty of instant death... but the mechanics were readable, and if you paid attention, you could guess what was meant ahead of time.

So, you think that only savage raiders did the fight the first 3 or so days after the fight was released? Everyone else waited for guides? I have to laugh.

The first time ramuh drops the spears, he quite literally vocalizes that he's going to hit one of them with lightning. The time between him dropping them and the cast for them exploding completing is eight seconds. You can run from on edge of the arena to the other in half that time.

The purple marker has been around in tons of dungeons and trials since at least heavensward, in various colors. It means you are going to drop something that will linger and possibly deal damage (e.g. Gubal Library). No, it doesn't tell you what happens when they are too close before you drop them, but failing that part of the mechanic doesn't instantly kill you in normal mode. I've healed through "the Parting Clouds" tons of times, the worst it does is give a nasty damage down debuff.

[Frizze]

I havent done a savage raid this expansion. I dont often go past the odd (Ex) trial in terms of difficult content. Instead, i look at this fight as one that i cleared during the afternoon of the tuesday that the patch went live(my goal was to get all 4 in before the schools let out, i didnt finish E8 until about dinner time). Random DF group, no one had gone looking for a guide and no one had done the fight before. We watched the mechanics, we died, we talked to each other. By the third pull we had seen all his moves and figured them out, we just needed to put a clean run together to move on. For the spears, maybe youre right that its 3ish seconds that they explode after the telegraph appears. But his casting bar and vocalization tells you whats coming. If youre in a corner(not a good idea anyway for this fight) that gives you time to move toward the center. Then the spears fall and sit there for a few seconds before the telegraph goes out. Thats time to identify the safe side before the telegraph appears. And if youre in the middle area like you should ideally be, even running once the telegraph appears will usually be possible since you only have to cover about 1/3 of the platform to reach safety from there. You had a rough first run, but youre attributing more difficulty to the fight then it actually has. Ramuh has like 5 moves, most of which can be dodged for 0 damage if you do it right.

[Stepjam]

I feel a lot of people in this thread are speaking through the eyes of people who are already experienced with the fight, and/or they watch videos to see what people do, etc.

And to the person who asked "how did the first few people clear the fight?" well.... obviously the first people to get there are savage raiders who are used to wiping and wiping and wiping... and they get through and make guide videos and then everybody is expected to go watch them.

The thing about the spears?

You have about two seconds-ish to figure out that one of the spears is shorter than the other and lacks a lightning bolt, before you run out of time to move out of the way. Maybe 3 seconds depending on where you were on the battlefield at the time. Any longer than that, and you will get caught in the AoE and die instantly.

To the person who said that these mechanics were present in the original Primals..... um, no? There were no spears covering most of the arena in Lv50 Ramuh, unless you mean Extreme Ramuh, which I never had reason to do.

The clouds? Yeah, they give you no clue what will happen if the two clouds merge, or even what the purple marker actually means. Even if you ran away from the group to dump the purple markers, unless the two so-marked knew to go to opposite ends of the Arena.... well, you're screwed. How would you know that ahead of time? You wouldn't, quite frankly.

And to the person who goes "is it a flaw to have to die multiple times to clear a normal fight?" .... I'd argue that yes, requiring several deaths to learn a fight is a bit cheap. It makes the whole thing feel cheap, like there's no way you could have known that before going in for the first time.

I've yet to clear a savage raid (still trying), but Eden Normal really isn't that hard. You may wipe a few times, but that doesn't mean its too hard. There's nothing wrong with wiping when learning a new fight as long as you are paying attention and learning from the wipe.

I remember when I did Ramuh, we basically wiped to stratospear the first time. After that we cleared it on the second pull. And this was with randoms.

It took longer to get first clear on later fights, I think it took about 30 minutes to get my first Shiva clear. And you know what? That's just fine. We learned, we got better at mechanics, and then we cleared. There was much more satisfaction from clearing Shiva than from if we had cleared first run.

Don't take wiping a couple times as the content being too hard. If you hit lockout on a normal fight, THEN maybe you have issues, but if a fight takes more than 1 or 2 pulls, that doesn't mean its too hard. Just pay attention and learn from your wipes.

[Vyrerus]

When I did Edenverse Ramuh normal mode day 1, my random DF group was able to one shot it, albeit with a lot of deaths. You also do get vuln stacks in that fight if you get hit by the telegraphed lightning storm spam AOEs.

As for how you're supposed to know things, well it's an inherent part of the game's design that you will die or be hit by a mechanic the first time that you see it. If you aren't, then you are either lucky, skipped it, or the mechanical tell was obvious enough that you mostly did the mechanics correctly.

Even in Savage raids there are very forgiving mechanics. I am on hiatus this raid tier, but last tier a perfect example is the aoes that target DPS and leave a gravity puddle in E1S. They were tuned to do enough damage to kill the DPS if two overlapped, but only from full HP of i450 entry gear. With shields and some mitigation, you could double stack the puddles, letting two melee DPS continue with their rotation instead of deal with the mechanic. You should always keep in mind that all forms of the battle content are designed to be beaten. There is always a way to win, though learning the path you have to tread varies fight to fight.

They haven't yet released a normal mode raid that wasn't possible for some group to beat first try, not counting original raids Binding Coil, before Savage was an idea. What you need to chock your discomfort up to is not the fight design, but your nervous state about being on a role you did not want to be on in there. Change your mentality. It is ok to die while you are learning, that is part of how you learn what mechanics are dangerous and what mechanics aren't. Plus, you can't control what people think of you. You could be one of the best players in the game, and people will think you're an idiot cause of the race you play or the glamour you have or the things you say. Focus on what you can control.

[Mithia]

I believe that content shouldn't be too easy, even in story mode, and that it's ok for people to progress on normal content. It's not like there are actual dps requirements on the fights, you can essentially zombie through. But if the majority of people fail to understand the mechanic I do feel that a wipe and retry should be warranted. Learn, adapt, and overcome!

[Kad00sh]

I one shotted my way through the normal raids. Only tried the first savage last night, set up a learning party, and wiped 5 or 6 times before my dogs decided they needed to go crazy at a bird outside (thought someone was breaking in). I find things that are difficult for the sake of being difficult aren't fun, but decided I would give it a shot to see if I could hang. As a "casual" I don't think things are so bad I can't learn it, I was doing fine with being mele DPS and baiting the hit and soaking in the cloud.

I think people are missing the OLD "story mode" primal fights that 4 people can handle. None of the new primals have NM, HM, EX., it's just HM and EX. Please note, I'm fine with the way things are. I don't want it to change, I just think this is what they are missing.

[Kaiten_kenbu]

Some like to learn the theory before doing practicals; others prefer jumping right into the practicals.

Either way is fine.

The larger problem is how to explain mechanics to a group that may or may not understand the language you use.

You can't possibly convey everything through the in-game translator.