Red Mage Opener confusion

[Choco_Breeder_Twirly]

I am not understanding some things so i wanted to ask and see if yall can help me make sense of this. I am looking up RDM opener/rotation and what im finding shows

(Acceleration)->Veraero->Verthunder->Verstone->Veraero->(Emboldment)->(Fleche)->Verfire->Verthunder->(Corps-a-corps)->(Contre Sixte)->Verstone->Verthunder->(Manafication)->(Engagement)->Enchanted Riposte->Enchanted Zwerchhau->Enchanted Redoublement->(Displacement)->Verholy->->Scorch->…

There are 2 things that im not understanding First and foremost is the use of Engagement over Displacement... Engagement has potency of 150 while Displacement has potency of 200. So for the life of me I can not understand why (unless flipping backwards is going to cause you to die) would you ever use Engagement over Displacement...

The second thing I am not understanding. Why is this the start to the opener now? Granted its been a long time since I researched RDM openers and i know things change so this is why im asking. When I got serious with RDM and cracked down on proper opener it was

Corps a corps > displacement > Fleche > Contre > Swift cast > Embolden > Acceleration > Veraero ...etc and always using displacement unless itd cause death.

Starting with corps and displacement first since you're going to use Manafication which will reset their timers first anyways...

So if someone could explain please b/c im rightly confused over here

[Kabooa]

Displacement has a longer animation lock. Delaying your GCD is the same as losing potency, and Red Mage has beefy gcds. Triple weaving to use the corps to get back into melee range to start your combo is losing significantly more than the 50 potency on engagement over displacement.

The rest is likely "math" and I don't have those numbers for you. Likely to do with raid alignment and making sure your heavy hitters are getting the buff / lining up, which is a significant gain over the course of the fight and likely doesn't lose any uses.

[Leidiriv]

Okay, first off, neither opener is anything close to a proper opener. We have two main variants, with Embolden and Contre Sixte being swapped depending on what physical DPS and tanks you have. I'll list them in order along with their pros and cons.

x-8:
-15s Acceleration > -5s Veraero > Verthunder (INT potion) > Verstone > Veraero (Fleche, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verfire > Verthunder (Corps-a-corps, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verstone > Verthunder (Engagement, Manafication) > Riposte (Corps-a-corps) > Zwercchau > Redoublement (Displacement) > Verholy > Scorch >Verstone/Verfire as procs dictate > Dualcast (Fleche, Swiftcast) > consume Swiftcast on Thunder/Aero

Pros:
1) gets more of your burst damage under raid buffs
2) guarantees a proc from your Verfinisher no matter what
3) execution is always the same

Cons:
1) lower mana generation than x-10
2) later Swiftcast usage than x-10


x-10: (will list worse case scenario with no post-Acceleration procs)
-15s Acceleration > -5s Veraero > Verthunder (INT potion) > Verstone > Veraero (Fleche, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verfire > Verthunder (Corps-a-corps, Contre Sixte/Embolden) > Verstone > Verthunder (Displacement) > Jolt II > Veraero (Manafication, Corps-a-corps) > Riposte (Swiftcast if latency lets you activate it after the combo) > Zwercchau (otherwise Swiftcast here) > Redoublement (Displacement) > Verflare > Scorch (Fleche) > Veraero

Pros:
1) better mana generation than x-8 thanks to Manafication being used to double mana slightly later
2) much earlier use of Swiftcast to align with later mechanics or potentially get an extra use over the course of the fight
3) enables you to use Reprise slightly more freely throughout the fight to align oGCDs and/or line Dualcast up with necessary movement
4) allows for Addle usage pre-Manafication if the fight has a potentially lethal raidwide AoE early on (such as Absolute Zero in E8S) by shifting both uses of Corps-a-corps back. First Corps-a-corps gets moved to the same weave space as Manafication and second Corps-a-corps gets moved to after/before Swiftcast depending on latency.

Cons:
1) execution is based on procs, will not be the same every time
2) slightly less burst damage is under raid buffs
3) does not always guarantee a proc from the Verfinisher

[HinokaTheRed]

There are 2 things that im not understanding First and foremost is the use of Engagement over Displacement... Engagement has potency of 150 while Displacement has potency of 200. So for the life of me I can not understand why (unless flipping backwards is going to cause you to die) would you ever use Engagement over Displacement...

The main reasoning for Engagement in the opener that you posted is because it is the faster variant of our opener, an "x-8" opener. There is a limited amount of oGCD space that we have to get all our things on cooldown before using Manafication, and like Kabooa said, Engagement has a shorter animation lock than Displacement. The shorter animation lock allows it to be used with another oGCD without clipping into your GCD and delaying your next GCD.

Corps a corps > displacement > Fleche > Contre > Swift cast > Embolden > Acceleration > Veraero ...etc and always using displacement unless itd cause death.

Starting with corps and displacement first since you're going to use Manafication which will reset their timers first anyways...

I'm not sure where you found this opener, as it is not something that neither me, nor the past RDM mentors at the Balance have ever written. While your reasoning is sound that Manafication resets them, so you want them on cooldown, opening on a fight with abilities off the global cooldown rather than a spell is a huge DPS loss. Your spells are going to be a big chunk of damage, and delaying your spells to get your oGCDs out means you also delay your Manafication and opening melee combo, which would disrupt your rotation for the rest of the fight.

[Katie_Kitty]

I don't think blowing all your oGCDs without a single GCD cast going out was ever the correct opener for Red Mage, lol

[Nemekh]

The've pretty much been outlined here, however, you can find the vetted openers and work hinoka, others and I have put together here on the Red Mage site Openers page.

There are some embedded videos as well. Hope they help.

[Silverquick]

I don't think you really can use an "Opener" with RDM unless its just a guideline.

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it. I determine whether i will or not after my first cast primarily because it just might proc which wastes your Acceleration AND if you do start proccing then Acceleration is going to come later in the order two which will hose up any kind of prediction of where your Melee +Verflare/Verholy + Scortch will come. It could end up coming up really fast... or more slow and steady.

You just never know when those procs will come.

[Myon88]

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it. I determine whether i will or not after my first cast primarily because it just might proc which wastes your Acceleration

This reasoning seems strange to me. Doesn't the nature of verthunder/aero's 50% proc chance mean that you can never be certain if the proc they gave you would've happened without acceleration? If it makes you feel any better, maybe you should think of acceleration as 'increases your proc chance by 50%' instead of guaranteeing a proc. Because outside of situations where you verholy/verflare the higher element on purpose and want to force a proc, no matter when you use acceleration, it is always going to overlap with the base 50% proc chance.

Plus, there are other reasons why you'd value consistency in your opener, for alignment with raid buffs for example. Or mechanics, take ucob which has a twister 10s into the opener and you really don't want to be fumbling with an improvised opener there.

[Rongway]

I don't think you really can use an "Opener" with RDM unless its just a guideline.

Primarily because you can't predict the RDM procs so it really kinda makes Acceleration kinda iffy when you try to use it.

Acceleration guarantees you get three procs and therefore are guaranteed to be able to Manafication into a melee combo after GCD 8.

There is far less RNG to RDM than many people believe. We get lots of guaranteed procs and mana rebates, and E.Reprise is in a good spot for burning mana when you get more procs than baseline.

[Silverquick]

This reasoning seems strange to me. Doesn't the nature of verthunder/aero's 50% proc chance mean that you can never be certain if the proc they gave you would've happened without acceleration? If it makes you feel any better, maybe you should think of acceleration as 'increases your proc chance by 50%' instead of guaranteeing a proc..

Well that quite frankly is why, I don't make the decision whether to use Acceleration or not until after my first cast.

If it procs on the first cast, you don't need to use Acceleration at that point which makes it moot, and you will get to your first Melee combo faster because you waited on it.

I can see Rongway's point in attempting to stablilize your Rotation for Raid buffs, but I just don't think you can do a predictable opener or even playstyle with RDM because of the Procs.