(Relics) What is the lowest-development-cost content we'd still find fun?

[hynaku]

I loved Eureka and was hoping for a new one in 5.0.

[Gemina]

Alternatively, from the player perspective alone, what content would you find fun in Relic grinds? Where does the border between "satisfying" and "overly grindy" lie? What can the devs learn from prior iterations of Relic grinds? What novel approaches might they take? To what extent would you forgive delays for greater efficiency or enjoyability in such content later?

I think they learned that a lot of players don't enjoy and complain to no end making the first step a battle with RNG and slapping it into a nefarious FATE grind. They learned that turning in an old relic that you worked your arse off for to skip that step entirely also was not the way to go about implementing a new relic quest.

I haven't done this quest yet, but I do know what it entails. Those of you asking for something more grindy are basically asking for a date with RNG. Is that what you really want? Because I hope most of you are aware that this is the path the SE typically uses.

I've done relics in every expansion thus far except SB, and I never really minded any of it, but I also come from a time when it was the intention of the devs that not all players would possess a relic in an mmo. That's not the case anymore. Now it's "everyone get's a relic!" And here we are. Granted, relics in MMOs that progress horizontally were kind of intended to be the last weapon you would ever own, and I think they mean a lot more in that type of game. In FFXIV though, your relic is destined to be your next glamour item. How hard do you think players really want to work for that before they bring out the tar and feathers?

The "grind" or lack thereof is a result of today's mmos. Player's don't want resistance. They want something that will at most take up an hour of their time and they can get on with business as normal. If that is the impression I get from the playerbase; it's not too tough to think that might have sunk in with the devs as well; especially when we look at how the game has progressed throughout the years. The old relic still tossed in a chance of failure at the very last step. It was low, but those are the kind of things this team cooks up. So be careful what you as for.

[Shurrikhan]

Those of you asking for something more grindy are basically asking for a date with RNG.

Out of curiosity, why do you assume this? RNG is far from the only way to achieve artificial longevity. We've seen plenty of examples of that at this point.

[Gemina]

Out of curiosity, why do you assume this? RNG is far from the only way to achieve artificial longevity. We've seen plenty of examples of that at this point.

I'm not assuming. I am also not saying that is what players want; but by virtue of SEs history, players are 'asking' for a run-in with RNG. If you want to Goldilocks this content to where the grind is 'just right', good luck. Our playerbase is far too diverse for that. The abundance of examples you refer to can all be categorized into three different ways I can think of that SE instills longevity into their content: Loot lockout; tome weekly limit; and the random number generator. One or more of these three have to be implemented or players will devour the content whole.

You ask the question of what's a feasible grind for us; but how about the devs? How much time should they poor into new content that does not use any of the aforementioned methods? Knowing that whether it's two months or six that this content is developed, it will be consumed in a matter of days? This resource time and management is also a grind, and the demand that the devs face never lets up.

There's another alternative: No relic at all. Kind of like Deep Dungeon. Vastly popular, huge repeatable factor, lots of rewards... Gone. When things like this happen, I am quick to remind players about the demand for Viera, housing, new game+, making new and old outfits compatible for both genders, among other things that directly affect the new content we get from this team. Basically what I am saying, is you - the playerbase, asked for this.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not assuming. I am also not saying that is what players want; but by virtue of SEs history, players are 'asking' for a run-in with RNG.

Again, though, unless you're calling even 'which content will get the light bonus' RNG, despite being very able to swap over and thereafter getting a guaranteed amount per run, Relics have actually had very little RNG thus far.

You get X amount of Y for a Gold, Silver, or Bronze in the only NM fates pertinent to relics. This step takes 40 A, 40 B, 40 C, and 40 D. This step takes 2000 Light. Etc., etc.

Our playerbase is far too diverse for that.

This would only be an issue if the means of progression were not also diverse. Oddly enough, we've rarely seen diversity of choice (instead only perhaps diversity of content) in progression systems in XIV, as either the steps (Zodiac seals, Anima book tasks, Eureka, etc.) have left the choices unalterable (no alternatives or requiring full completion with no substitutions), or the rewards-per-minute among certain choices have been so much greater on some choices than others that they have effectively devolved into non-choices.

This is worsened when the choices aren't even different enough in the first place to attract different sets of players differently, where the diversity of the playerbase could otherwise have been a boon for the game's active population. If you're given the choice between (to you) mediocre trial A and mediocre trial B to grind, you're just going to grind whatever's most efficient. But give someone the choice between a ton of difficult crafting and about the same time spent in running dungeons, and suddenly player preferences allow for different outcomes.

Perhaps there will always be three groups among some grinding and liking it, others doing grinding reluctantly, and still others just giving up preemptively, but you can do a lot to siphon the 2nd and 3rd group into that 1st one.

[AnimaAnimus]

This thread derailed faster than Doom Train after catching wind there was a Phoenix Down ahead

[RitsukoSonoda]

I enjoyed Eureka for the most part. The only parts I didn't care for were fairly minor.

1. Map design for Pagos and Pyros. Pagos my issue was that narrow canyon that served as the only way to get to any of the upper areas by foot. Pyros was just the way the map was mostly narrow pathways.
2. The planning for turn ins on the Pagos step of weapons. The way they'd inserted the light grind felt like it was tacked on after someone had planned out the other resources resulting in the light grind being the stalling point for everyone building the weapons. It wasn't as bad in Pyros.
3. Drop rates for the items that upgraded the boards and rare item drops from specific fate enemies felt excessively low.

I'm actually hoping for new content similar to Eureka in the future. My issues with Baldeson's Arsenal weren't about the content itself but more with the player community in regards to their approach on it as tended towards them saying "all of this stuff must be present or we aren't going to try" rather than "ok we have all of this so lets see how we can make it work"

[MrThinker]

I'm actually hoping for new content similar to Eureka in the future. My issues with Baldeson's Arsenal weren't about the content itself but more with the player community in regards to their approach on it as tended towards them saying "all of this stuff must be present or we aren't going to try" rather than "ok we have all of this so lets see how we can make it work"

A reminder just in case you did not know/forgot. There will be a new field-type instanced zone, similar to Eureka, as part of the StQ storyline, slated to be released in 5.35, alongside with another public dungeon, similar to BA.

These instances will, hopefully, take the liked parts of Eureka and BA and change the less liked parts for a better experience for everyone.

[RitsukoSonoda]

A reminder just in case you did not know/forgot. There will be a new field-type instanced zone, similar to Eureka, as part of the StQ storyline, slated to be released in 5.35, alongside with another public dungeon, similar to BA.

These instances will, hopefully, take the liked parts of Eureka and BA and change the less liked parts for a better experience for everyone.

They could also throwback further to FFXI and the Relic/Mythic weapons there that involved acquiring special currency that could be sold between players to create a giant potential gil sink that could take a lot of the abundant gil out of circulation and slow economy inflation. Or deflate it in a best case scenario. Just a random thought. Building those things was actually super easy in that game when you played the game long enough farming HNMs that you had more gil than the RMT.

[Shurrikhan]

They could also throwback further to FFXI and the Relic/Mythic weapons there that involved acquiring special currency that could be sold between players to create a giant potential gil sink that could take a lot of the abundant gil out of circulation and slow economy inflation. Or deflate it in a best case scenario. Just a random thought. Building those things was actually super easy in that game when you played the game long enough farming HNMs that you had more gil than the RMT.

Given how concentrated wealth is already, I'm not sure most players would go for 5% being done within a couple days and 80% only after a few months, especially since that advantage would come from things largely considered arduous/unfun/auxiliary, and yet already quite rewarding at the start of each new tier....