Ideas to improve the AST card system

[AnotherPerson]

Since it's been a bit difficult trying to think of that many, I split up the defense increase. What I came up with was:
Physical def increase
Magical def increase
Positional requirements removed (only benefits jobs that require them)
Increased HP regeneration
Increased MP regeneration (only benefits mana users)
Increased movement speed (Peloton can't be used during battle so I wonder if this is a strict no no)
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Cards that either physical def and magic def is a bad idea - you can't choose which one you'll get and if a boss you're fighting or in regular dungeons don't do that damage, it becomes a useless draw. We want to avoid having "useless" draw cards, so every card should work for any situation, but the difference is how cards can work better in some than in others. MP is a resource that will always be invaluable - no matter the composition and playstyle because [you] use that resource. Thus it will always have a place in the party as it's your third mana management tool.

The problem with having DPS cards mixed in with other effects is fishing for only DPS cards. This can be addressed:
1. Remove fishing ability and guarantee a level of certainty in drawing
2. Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS or provides utility so powerful that forgoing DPS for powerful survival is a worthwhile trade, but you will have other healers complain about utility after)
3. Remove DPS gain from cards entirely and DPS gain be an extension to the seal system - buffing all allies with divination/somewhere else

So 6 unique card effects with a draw system:
1. Less RNG 3 Draw piles, 2 cards to a pile - This means 3 hotkeys for drawing and still has a small element of RNG, but effectively takes away the problem of not getting a defense when you need it and mana when you don't.
2. RNG Old Spread no redraw ( Unstable DPS, cards must be adjusted/removed)

Effects I can think of that don't impact "DPS" with a flat statistic on single targets:
1. Increasing max HP 20% for 15 secs - Spear
2. Increase Defense by 20% for 15 secs - Bole
3. Restoring Mana by X potency for 15 secs (Useful for you so it will always have a place in the party) - Ewer
4. Giving instant cast and 50% mana cost for X uses for 15 secs (Can be always useful for you & casters, so it will have a place in the party) - Spire
5. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'

I can't call something that's an arrow without giving DPS. There's 2 definitions with Arrow - speed and penetrative power.
Movement speed is completely useless on a 30 second cd - with peloton and sprint/boss throwing undodgeable AoE.
Maybe Haste for 15 seconds BUT weaponskill attack speed can screw up rotations, so maybe not. SkS is

[Gemina]

Cards that either physical def and magic def is a bad idea - you can't choose which one you'll get and if a boss you're fighting or in regular dungeons don't do that damage, it becomes a useless draw. We want to avoid having "useless" draw cards, so every card should work for any situation, but the difference is how cards can work better in some than in others. MP is a resource that will always be invaluable - no matter the composition and playstyle because [you] use that resource. Thus it will always have a place in the party as it's your third mana management tool.

In my last post, I already pointed out that tying any utility to a RNG based card system doesn't work. This doesn't just apply to splitting up a defense buff. Avoiding useless or unfavorable draws is also something I brought up. That is why I proposed eliminating RNG almost entirely. When you draw, you draw all six cards, and then use them as the situation calls for them. If you still have cards left when Draw is about to come off of cooldown, Royal Road can return to burn them, or perhaps consumed by Minor Arcana.

The problem with having DPS cards mixed in with other effects is fishing for only DPS cards. This can be addressed:

1. Remove fishing ability and guarantee a level of certainty in drawing
Addressed in my statement

2. Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS or provides utility so powerful that forgoing DPS for powerful survival is a worthwhile trade, but you will have other healers complain about utility after)[/b]
This is probably one of the biggest conundrums with the whole system. The only way the card system works is if all the cards contribute to rDPS, or none of them.

3. Remove DPS gain from cards entirely and DPS gain be an extension to the seal system - buffing all allies with divination/somewhere else
I'm wondering if you read my post in its entirety..

Effects I can think of that don't impact "DPS" with a flat statistic on single targets:
1. Increasing max HP 20% for 15 secs - Spear
2. Increase Defense by 20% for 15 secs - Bole
3. Restoring Mana by X potency for 15 secs (Useful for you so it will always have a place in the party) - Ewer
4. Giving instant cast and 50% mana cost for X uses for 15 secs (Can be always useful for you & casters, so it will have a place in the party) - Spire
5. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'

It's tough isn't it? When encounter design favors DPS contribution, it is extremely difficult to come up with DPS-free utility that is not only useful, but desired. And we're trying to come up with six.

I can't call something that's an arrow without giving DPS. There's 2 definitions with Arrow - speed and penetrative power.
Movement speed is completely useless on a 30 second cd - with peloton and sprint/boss throwing undodgeable AoE.
Maybe Haste for 15 seconds BUT weaponskill attack speed can screw up rotations, so maybe not. SkS is

Considering that both Arrow and Spear still boosted DPS somewhat (just not a flat increase like with Balance); it would actually be much easier to think of six different ways to - or three additional ways to increase rDPS than coming up with favorable effects for each card that also bring substance to the encounter.

[ty_taurus]

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

Because of that cool down, you're looking at most situations being 2 Solar seal cards, 1 Lunar seal, and 1 Celestial seal, because you'll need to use each the Defensive and Resource buttons once per 120 seconds. The major difference is choice. You are the one that gets to choose when the non-DPS utility cards are most useful, not RNG.

[Tulzscha]

Tying utility to the cards makes things really difficult because of the RNG.

I think that just depends how you look at it. If you're trying to get a specific effect for a specific mechanic then yeah but there are other abilities for that, cards just make everyone's lives a little better. Tanks, BLMs or DRGs are always gonna get hit by something so just throwing bonus dmg reduction on them never hurts, casters could always use a little more mobility, etc. If rng is going to be a core aspect of them you don't want them to be super important.

Adjust other card effects to be competitive enough to DPS without being a direct DPS buff (Essentially impossible unless other cards contribute to DPS...

There's an idea, could have all the different kinds of utility with a dmg buff added to them. At least then they'd never feel useless.

[Gemina]

I think that just depends how you look at it. If you're trying to get a specific effect for a specific mechanic then yeah but there are other abilities for that, cards just make everyone's lives a little better. Tanks, BLMs or DRGs are always gonna get hit by something so just throwing bonus dmg reduction on them never hurts, casters could always use a little more mobility, etc. If rng is going to be a core aspect of them you don't want them to be super important.

That's the tricky part I was referring to. If you give these generalized buffs to the cards that benefit everyone, that is just another way of eliminating the RNG. The question becomes if AST mains will even feel like their cards are making an impact on the encounter, and once again doing all this work for little reward. That's my concern with this kind of change. Then there is also coming up with six different effects that are non-damage related, that also stay true to the lore behind each card.

There's an idea, could have all the different kinds of utility with a dmg buff added to them. At least then they'd never feel useless.

If you can accomplish this, then there's no point putting a DMG buff to the card. If you have to put a DMG buff on a card for it to be useful, AST card mechanic immediately defaults to what it is now. This is what I am under the impression that we are trying to avoid.

[Zukkz]

Revert to old card system. Improve the buffs and the AoE's and bring back CO whilst we're on talking about AST lol

[Morningstar1337]

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

Honestly I might go further and have the all 6 cards have three different effects based on what buttons used, with the offensive button being the current effects.

As for the other two types:

Defensive:

• Bole: Max HP increase
• Ewer: A chance for an otherwise leathal attack to instead bring the target's HP down to 1
• Balance: Bloodbath effect
• Spire: Cover effect (target takes all hits that would be taken by nearby players)
• Arrow: Target's attack inflicts Atk down
• Spear: Knockback resistance

Utility:

• Bole: Adds one "gague" to target's job bar where applicable
• Ewer: MP refresh
• Balance: Removes all debuffs on target or averages out target and caster's HP
• Spire: All Spells have no cast time (useful only for casters...and healers) for the duration of the effect
• Arrow: Removes 1 debuff from target and nearby allies (may be switched with Spire)
• Spear: CD reduction like the old effect, but applied retroactively

That way all cards would be useful in at least one type in most situations

Though of course people might gravitate towards the offensive button, so I might prefer that be on a separate longer CD

[ty_taurus]

Honestly I might go further and have the all 6 cards have three different effects based on what buttons used, with the offensive button being the current effects.

We can't even seem to get 6 card effects right at the moment. I really don't think increasing that to 18 card effects is the solution.

[AnotherPerson]

In my last post, I already pointed out that tying any utility to a RNG based card system doesn't work. This doesn't just apply to splitting up a defense buff. Avoiding useless or unfavorable draws is also something I brought up. That is why I proposed eliminating RNG almost entirely. When you draw, you draw all six cards, and then use them as the situation calls for them. If you still have cards left when Draw is about to come off of cooldown, Royal Road can return to burn them, or perhaps consumed by Minor Arcana.

The problem is having all 6 being hotbar'd at one point. Not to mention having 6 cards to cycle from when drawn at the start would cause terrible carpal tunneling to maximize skill benefit for those optimizing in raids to pull off their huge combo (assuming cards are used for a DPS buff like divination currently). Not having all 6 cards drawn at once and letting you pick causes the second issue of having 6 slots dedicated to each draw being a terrible design due to the amount of slots taken for other skills in the hotbar. This is especially important for those who are playing on the game controller. The only way this would work is if the AST system builds up using cards only for their future skills and enhances and modifies these skills like the ninja system without having many more existing oGCD skills.

Having any utility to a RNG based system can work as long as the RNG is controlled through the card system. Besides, the whole lore of AST isn't to have the draws you want, but to have draws where you can use to maximize the situation. This means making any card fit a general use in a party of 2 to 8. Having a controlled set of RNG (cards you can draw for what you need with a general baseline) allows this to work because it reduces the uncertainty factor to something where gameplay wise ASTs can manage and adjust as needed and still leave that uncertainty in the lore. That's why I supported ty_taurus's idea.

It's tough isn't it? When encounter design favors DPS contribution, it is extremely difficult to come up with DPS-free utility that is not only useful, but desired. And we're trying to come up with six.

Not really, the thread is doing great at brain storming for ideas. Maybe not one person can figure out a good combination, but the collective ideas of the thread easily came up with over 6 different utilities that can fit for general utility. Some of them can even be used to open more doors to other types of abilites.

Here's the thing, having the draw be 3 different buttons can still work even if we eliminate the DPS cards. I'd just rename them to Potential/Defense/Resource.

Potential replacing the Damage button by having:

Not a 3000 character limit

[AnotherPerson]

Potential replacing the Damage button by having:

1. Grant a 10% to 30% Defense buff that scales depending on the HP of the character you give the buff to (like Essential Dignity) - 'Balance'
1a. Grant bloodbath ability like Morning Star suggested for 15 seconds
2. Target attacks cripple the enemy, applying a slow (6 seconds) - 'Arrow' for 15 seconds.
2a. Target moves so blindingly fast/sees the incoming flurry of hits that they get dodge rate up by 50% for 15 seconds.

Potential has the potential to be more useful, but there are varying degrees based on how the target preforms. I think this is as close as we can get to not giving DPS and having a functionally useful buff takes its place.

The main issue would then be probably to move all the DPS to a different mechanic. It would probably be better to make a DPS gain require any 3 seals to avoid AST from playing one particular rotation style.

Regarding the idea of splitting the draw between 3 buttons: The Offensive button, the Defensive button, and the Resource button, the Offensive button will be chosen most of the time for sure. That said, if you still have Divination in place, or a form of additional DPS gain that requires the additional seals, then both your Defensive button and your Resource button are contributing to rDPS. The difference here is that, in the duration of divination's Cooldown, you're looking for the moments where the Defensive and Resource buttons are best useful so that you have Divination ready to go when it comes off cool down. You could just burn them for the sake of burning them, the that's what the novice AST would do. The skilled AST would try and find the moments when they are most helpful in the 120 second time frame.

Because of that cool down, you're looking at most situations being 2 Solar seal cards, 1 Lunar seal, and 1 Celestial seal, because you'll need to use each the Defensive and Resource buttons once per 120 seconds. The major difference is choice. You are the one that gets to choose when the non-DPS utility cards are most useful, not RNG.

I agree with the sentiment because after everything has been said and done, players who optimize would choose to use the damage button more since they have a higher skill level to adjust better. I can also see why people would complain because they would be focusing on the DPS button more, but honestly I think this is the best solution since it gives a higher skill cap to those who would use them more efficiently and a lower ceiling for those who wouldn't due to the actual variety of buffs they can draw.