Thread: 6.0 Bard complete rework please

Given the only functional differences between Stormblood Bard and how it is at 70 now is not being reliant on crit-stacking to be relevant on personal DPS and having Foe Requiem, I have to question how anyone could think it accurately describes how people want Bard to play. They’re the class who should have to buff properly, not benefit heavily from party buffs. ARR/HW Bard was closer to this support goal than people realize.

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

At that point the ranged balance can be Machinist on top of Personal Damage, with Bard and Dancer tied or close to tied for personal numbers, but they both make up that gap with their buffs in different ways. Dancer turbocharges their dance partner to the effect of 1500-2000 DPS over the fight as they do currently, while Bard subtly buffs everyone to around the same raid contribution.

To be fair, that's kinda what they're going for with the passive song dmg% buff they currently have. It just doesn't feel nearly as interactive as DNC's feels.

I agree that SB BRD has been the most fun to play. I do miss Foe's and old Valor/Mage's songs though. Finding when to pop songs to help your party just enough to keep their full efficiency while still cranking out as much personal dps as you can was alot of fun to me.

Originally Posted by Kalise

Really, SE has shot themselves in the knee with BRD.

Firstly, because of how they didn't abandon the Class > Job thing with the start of ARR, meaning that BRD is built upon ARC, so much of their core kit is purely using bows to shoot people.

...I much prefer a bow-wielding bard to any pure support. I see no reason to separate the augmentative kit of a musician/storyteller/person-who-generally-needs-to-be-able-to-understand-people-and-has-both-tremendous-memory-and-awareness from the weapon that makes the most sense for that added skillset.

Similarly, I don't want some guy doing nothing but shouting limericks at the top of his voice in the hopes that I'll notice his wit and get a Crit buff while I'm actually, visibly and viscerally, killing things. I prefer he slip in the witty comment... while shooting people, relying less on the suspension of disbelief that a weaponless singer is somehow going to provide the benefit equal to a greataxe, a star-throwing caster, and an odachi despite the limited and almost wholly damage-focused mechanics available to this game.

Originally Posted by Kalise

So that the BRD aspect of the job is simply tacked on top.

Chakra manipulation is merely added atop the Pugilist skillset, the one into which it best fits. Blood of the Dragon and leaping over tall buildings is merely added to spearmanship, the proficiency into which it best fits. Big guy with axe, quite sensibly, gets the 'even bigger when angry' augmentation. Every job works in the way you're describing.

Originally Posted by Kalise

Secondly, they're kinda screwed because they want to move away from heavy support classes. Due to how it affects the meta because buffs > all, which lead to the prominence that was 6 years of BRD being omnipresent in literally every static, with Trick Attack Ninja being close to the same prevalence.

Now this I'll largely agree with, though I feel the devil is in the details more than anything so fatalistic as the various strains of "Support can NeVEr bE bAlanCed" you'll find across certain forums here.

For me, it comes largely from (1) removing the systems of compromise (such as damage loss) that previously allowed for deeper support without being wholly and passively reliant on its maximal output, (2) not compiling buffs for additive effect rather than multiplicative effect, (3) neglect to balance the effectiveness of buffs across various jobs, and (4) neglect to design more fluid systems of variable output for Supports (such as swapping songs more frequently and fluidly while still forcing a use of each song over time).

Originally Posted by Kalise

This means it's much harder to accurately capture the feeling of being a Bard, even in XIV's more limited showing of BRD which is more or less just about buffing allies in combat with songs (Given we really just follow the path of a militarized bard, looking for songs that are usable by Gridania's gaurd)

I haven't leveled a Bard to 50 since 1.x, back when the quest chain mostly took you through the dew-grassed rolling hills of Coerthas, but there at least it seemed to give a very logical interpretation of the job: you, as someone capable of learning how people act and react, of memorizing songs and generally getting your way through intelligence, awareness, and charisma, were a squad leader and shot-caller. As befitting someone in that position, you wielded a bow. It suited your nature and kept you at range to act as part of the squad, to direct it, and to provide utility to quickly allow for your directions to be followed. You kept their morale up, coordinated their movements, marked shifts in tactics or to new stages of your strategy, and were rightly and uniquely valuable for that.

...That's the feeling I want back for Bard. It doesn't have to be a random trumpeter in the back of the field, nor does it have to go in and out of range shaking a tambourine beside its party members' ears. I just want to feel like I can actually provide something unique and befitting that sort of shot-caller or battle-adjuster niche.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...That's the feeling I want back for Bard. It doesn't have to be a random trumpeter in the back of the field, nor does it have to go in and out of range shaking a tambourine beside its party members' ears. I just want to feel like I can actually provide something unique and befitting that sort of shot-caller or battle-adjuster niche.

Battle Paint is a concept I want that not many games do.

Throw down stuff on the ground for bonuses, like an arrow that gives movement speed in the pointed direction, semi circle that reduces damage to those within the curve, all that fun stuff.

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Battle Paint is a concept I want that not many games do.

Throw down stuff on the ground for bonuses, like an arrow that gives movement speed in the pointed direction, semi circle that reduces damage to those within the curve, all that fun stuff.

Heh, stuff I'd imagined for Wildling before. Idk how I feel about it on Bard, but I'd like to see something like that someday.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...I much prefer a bow-wielding bard to any pure support.

The issue isn't with Bard having offensive capabilites, but rather that their core is about being a master marksman, as opposed to being a BARD.

Also note, that while most games offer a terrible implementation of Bard, often being pure support *Flashbacks to Rift's Bard, sitting in the middle of Raid Rifts... Just spamming buffs* it's not the ONLY interpretation.

For example, Everquest's Bard classes (Dirge and Troubador) are notably Rogues at their core. They use daggers and/or bows/throwing knives to stab/shoot enemies. But they also combine the essence of Barding. They have skills where they use their voice to attack for massive damage. They offer a selection of buffs for allies via songs as well as debuffs against enemies for other songs.

This allows them to have their entire kit be infused with Barding, having songs buff and debuff, using your voice to damage or CC enemies etc. Whilst also having a role as a damage dealer, with also standard attacks (Stabbing with a dagger for example)

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Chakra manipulation is merely added atop the Pugilist skillset, the one into which it best fits. Blood of the Dragon and leaping over tall buildings is merely added to spearmanship, the proficiency into which it best fits. Big guy with axe, quite sensibly, gets the 'even bigger when angry' augmentation. Every job works in the way you're describing.

Monk, a predominantly fist based martial fighter, is added on top on Pugilist, a fist based martial fighter.

Dragoon, a spear wielding fighter, is added on top of Lancer, a spear wielding fighter.

Warrior, a job that has seen notable use with axes (But not exclusively), is added on top of Marauder an axe wielding class.

Black Mage, a stave wielding Black Magic caster, is added on top of Thaumaturge, a primarily stave wielding Black Magic caster.

Bard, a singing virtuoso, is added on top of Archer, an archery based class.

One of these things is not like the others.

Literally, the only thing that makes Bard and Archer work together is the notion that a Bow can be a harp because they both have strings. Which is not only not how that works (Bow strings are working to hold maximal force from either the bending of the limbs, wheras Harp (Along with all string instruments) are holding specific tensions so as to create particular notes when strummed), but also not actually used in the game with going so far as to PULL OUT A SMALL HARP OUT OF NOWHERE IN ORDER TO STRUM IT.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I haven't leveled a Bard to 50 since 1.x, back when the quest chain mostly took you through the dew-grassed rolling hills of Coerthas, but there at least it seemed to give a very logical interpretation of the job: you, as someone capable of learning how people act and react, of memorizing songs and generally getting your way through intelligence, awareness, and charisma, were a squad leader and shot-caller. As befitting someone in that position, you wielded a bow. It suited your nature and kept you at range to act as part of the squad, to direct it, and to provide utility to quickly allow for your directions to be followed. You kept their morale up, coordinated their movements, marked shifts in tactics or to new stages of your strategy, and were rightly and uniquely valuable for that.

Yeah, new Bard is none of that.

In ARR, you're not even in a squad. You're just sent around looking for songs by Jehantel, who only became a Bard because he lost his ability to be an Archer. Then you end up making him become an Archer again.

In HW, you're not the squad leader. Sanson the Gridanian guard is. You're not the one being charismatic, intelligent, memorizing or composing songs, Guydelot the actual Bard is.

You're there for one thing and one thing only. Because you're a master Archer. So you can fight with the guard to keep everyone safe while you look for the Ultimate Song (Supposedly a weapon, with intentions to use it for the Gridanian army. Oh, and some minor thing about showing how Bards can be more beneficial to a squad than a simple Archer, by shooting stuff with arrows...)

Or if you look at StB, you're again, just there to be a master Archer as well as a reknown adventurer who pushed back the Garlean forces, while you escort some bloke (Then get embroiled in secret terrorism and suppressed truths... Which have you fighting against an evil terrorist group. There might have been something about songs there? Or maybe that was just the actual Bard who went and played songs in the local taverns in order to coerce people into spilling their secrets...)

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

My point is merely that I like that it has a bow because I like for my Bard to be armed and, since we're only allowed a single weapon type, I like that it uses the weapon that makes the most sense.

Though, exactly how much sense does it make?

Given that in the same setting, we have a class/job that uses a BOOK in order to inflict plagues or summon an icon of a world shattering Dragon.

Where we have a job that DANCES to infuse allies with additional power.

That includes a job that makes hand gestures to create Fireballs, Lightning Strikes or summon Shuriken.

We even have a job that uses a purely theatrical rod but is capable of conjuring missiles, earthquakes, fireballs, laser beams, tsunami's, lightning strikes, ice bows, explosions etc.

At what point does a weapon make more sense for a Bard than an instrument? Given that literally, magic exists allowing for something innocuous like an actual harp or flute to be a bringer of destruction if it happened to channel aether in a relevant way.

Bard in of itself, can offer a number of ways of providing offense via magical words and songs. Be it in the form of incredibly depressing music that actually drains the life of your foes in much the opposite way your music can revitalize your allies. Or be it in the form of having mastery over your voice/music to be able to utilize deafening blasts of sound (Which would be akin to a Wind spell like Aero, given how sound can manipulate the air)

It doesn't inherently need a weapon in order to deal damage to things, especially in a setting where magic exists in abundance. One merely helps expand options. Though the main difference is a Bard doesn't need to necessarily rely upon weapons entirely for their combat, nor even for a majority of it.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But that leaves you with the same problem. What part of Rogue or dagger-wielding shouts Music? Is Music just an eclectic weapon set?

Rogues are often charismatic and adept at using misdirection and alternate fighting methods. As well as being notable for being able to coerce and persuade people using mere words.

Though, part of it could also relate back to how D&D Bards are Rogues, using shortswords/rapiers alongside their songs. Which they can enhance using magic via their songs.

However, the "Issue" is avoided because they're not primarily Rogues with Bard stuck on top, but Bards through and through. With attack rotations that include songs/shouts that deal damage or otherwise enhance their attacks.

Since the "Issue" is not "Does this weapon fit a Bard?" but merely, how much said "Bard" relies upon weapons as opposed to utilizing music or their voice (Either via shouts, magical words or chants) given that due to the versatility of Bardic magics, you can theoretically justify nearly every weapon for a Bard. It really just depends on what kind of ways the magics are utilized.

In XIV, most of how Bardic magic is used is via a passive effect, while you just shoot arrows at people. While for some reason, your songs allow you to shoot people with arrows more often (MB/AP) or shoot a aether infused arrow at people (WP). Meaning that you have all of 3 Bardic infused attacks, the arrow from WP, Iron Jaws (I think? It's hard to tell exactly what that attack is doing. I just know it isn't shooting an arrow at the target though) and Apex Arrow (Which uses Soul Voice gauge)