Thread: 6.0 Bard complete rework please

Something I've noticed over time regarding the Bard community is that we are essentially split into camps because of the whole Archer -> Bard situation.

There are the true Bard players who want Bard to either largely or even entirely abandon archery in favor of becoming musicians that not only support, but also attack with music.

There are the true Archer players who picked up the job because they wanted to play the fantasy of a master marksman with the bow and arrow. They don't necessarily want to become a Bard, but are happy that they do have an Archer-like role all things considered.

Lastly, there are what I would define as the "New Age Bard" players who actually love that Archer and Bard are mixed as, for them, it gives the job some new life rather than just being your standard musician or bowman class.

The problem, regardless of play style, is that it seems very difficult to move Bard toward an identity that makes all three of these groups happy... but maybe a rework could actually make that happen.

For that reason, I kinda want to see something big happen. Something I think could work would be taking some inspiration from jobs like Black Mage and/or Red Mage. Create two separate sets of tools, i.e. your archery tools and your musical tools.

Your archery attacks become entirely selfish DPS and effectively act as your burst window. In this moment, your use of music is almost completely non-existent.

Your music attacks are weaker but focus on setting yourself up with a self-buff play style, some of which can still splash over to the rest of your team, but rather than just using your Mage's Ballad or Wonderer's Minuet, you have to build up to get that song in effect by using your musical attack rotation. Kinda like a reverse Black Mage where you want to start with your Blizzard spells to build your MP up first, and then blast through it with Fire. Here you want to set yourself up to use one consistent song that would appear on the gauge, then get 30 seconds to blast through your high damage archery attacks. The process to get there could take about 30 seconds itself, so it's a game of juggling your two themes.

The reason this could work is because it could make each camp happy. Yes, you'll still have this big archery window, but if you want that dedicated musician, you at least have a 30 second window where all you do is sing and play your harp and flute. The same is true in reverse where you may need to play these instruments first, but if you want to be an archer, you get an uninterrupted window of pure archery. The people who like that XIV's Bard is a hybrid will still be able to appreciate this thematic as well.

The numbers and mechanics of this concept would need to be tested, prototyped, and not made to be quite as directly inspired by Black Mage as my example, but that was more about getting the point across. I don't think it should be exactly like that, but something within that ball park.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Something I've noticed over time regarding the Bard community is that we are essentially split into camps because of the whole Archer -> Bard situation.

You have the gunner camp and the machine-gadget camp.
Well that was rouhgly the case with MCH too

However SE doesn't add job fast enough to reach a point where every archetype has a job. I don't think bard will get any form of big rework. Beside a bit more song related animation for future skills.
The job currently has a strong and fun gameplay with its various mechanic such as the song rotation. I wouldn't be surprise to see partial rework to have more things added to each song (so each has a more unique playstyle).

I also agree with Shurrikhan, saying you're not happy with something is fine, but so far you've been extremely vague about what you want. I for one do not understand what kind of gameplay youactually want. I understand you want more support but that's still quite vague. And as someone else said, support hardly work in mmo.
If anything the game is in a better state currently because they removed so much support and synergie. Giving too much would just make the job either too attractive or too lackluster (because dps would be too low to compensate for instance).
Just looking and DNC and RDM whole utility vs dps issue, I'm hardly surprised you'd want more of that unless you've never left the comfort of an expert roulette or ex trial.

Anyway, I can't say I'm glad with the current iteration as I havn't leveled it 80 yet, but the change did seem nice so I don't think I won't like it when 80

Originally Posted by Sylvain

You have the gunner camp and the machine-gadget camp.
Well that was rouhgly the case with MCH too

However SE doesn't add job fast enough to reach a point where every archetype has a job. I don't think bard will get any form of big rework. Beside a bit more song related animation for future skills.
The job currently has a strong and fun gameplay with its various mechanic such as the song rotation. I wouldn't be surprise to see partial rework to have more things added to each song (so each has a more unique playstyle).

I also agree with Shurrikhan, saying you're not happy with something is fine, but so far you've been extremely vague about what you want. I for one do not understand what kind of gameplay youactually want. I understand you want more support but that's still quite vague. And as someone else said, support hardly work in mmo.
If anything the game is in a better state currently because they removed so much support and synergie. Giving too much would just make the job either too attractive or too lackluster (because dps would be too low to compensate for instance).
Just looking and DNC and RDM whole utility vs dps issue, I'm hardly surprised you'd want more of that unless you've never left the comfort of an expert roulette or ex trial.

Anyway, I can't say I'm glad with the current iteration as I havn't leveled it 80 yet, but the change did seem nice so I don't think I won't like it when 80

StB a was really nice iteration of Bard, And the ShB version is basically less busy and SV never really makes up for it and it's a GCD, which feels yucky within the job's flow instead along with the lore becoming just flavor text and outright ignored like it was in HW for a more DPS focused design that interferes with the job's flow through the wanderer's minuet in 3.0. So, if that bugged you: then this might feel just a tiny little uncomfortable even after the patch

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Also note that the idea of bard being musical at all isnt always present. Like how the harper guild may employ tale weaving, but are in reality dragonslayers.

The origin of bard as a word is actually poets. Not musicians.

So we should throw hipster poems on parchment at enemies?

There is also the ninjutsu camp and yhe assassin blade play camp for rogues.

This debate is purely opinion based.

Personally as a ninja right now id like to see a little less magic attacks and a little more blade play, but generally im satisfied. (Dwd, shadow clone, assassinate bhavacakra satisfy me well enough)

Some bard players will always prefer archery, and somr will prefer the music aspect.

Something of note tho. Of the few ff games that jad progressive class growth archer was usually paired close to thief and ninja. Bard has been paired closer in with calculator and summoner. Dancer in fft was also on the physical side of the spectrum, but bard has historically been presented as more magical.

That being said archetypes can be spun many ways. In dnd sword school exists. There are mant different takes, and personally ff14d bard archetype is cool imo.

Originally Posted by MerlinCross

So we should throw hipster poems on parchment at enemies?

Ever had a vogon read poetry to you?
(Please tell me this reference isnt lost haha)

Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Ever had a vogon read poetry to you?
(Please tell me this reference isnt lost haha)

Hitchhickers right?