Is Summoner currently fun to play?

[Cythil]

I don't really care about how well Summoner is performing currently as long as it's not the absolute worst by a large margin. I just care whether or not it's fun to play in it's current state. The job interests me for few reasons. Firstly, leveling Scholar along side it seems like nice benefit in case I want to give healing a shot and the class fantasy of being able to summon Bahamut just seems awesome. Also to a lesser extent just cause I find AoE DoTing satisfying so Bane seems nice.

[zcrash970]

Summoner has always been an interesting class. If you love dots and particle effects, you'll probably love the class

[Nemekh]

I've stuck through with Summoner for a long time now and it's in a much more enjoyable state than it was before 5.10 back when I did my initial review of the 5.0 job on youtube.

Summoner has one of the highest number of AoE sequences to consider due to target count, timers and what actions are presently available. That's a lot of fun to me than fewer, more repetitive options which I find more boring. Not to mention Firebird Trance and Demi-Enkindles are among the more satisfying actions to throw out there.

There's a bit of pet clunk to be mindful of and parts of the rotation not seemingly being that intuitive, but once you've got the flow down it's one of the more unique jobs. I have my website http://www.akhmorning.com/ with guide materials for players interested in the job - feel free to use it or ask us any questions in the channels over at the Balance discord!

[Tulzscha]

Yes!

Early levels are a drag but max level is great fun indeed. Lots to do, big awesome effects that last, some utility, good mobility, and it's not completely braindead so it's not very easy to get bored. It's the only dps job I play and I don't feel the need for another.

If I had to explain the play style I'd say it's like playing in phases, cycling cooldowns. A teensy bit of planning ahead, managing a few things, mostly easy stuff once you get the hang of it though it may take a little bit to get fully used to. It has a pretty set pattern for the most part, no rng at all. It helps a lot to know when bosses become invulnerable or disappear so you don't waste a cooldown.

The dots kinda feel like an afterthought. For the most part they're applied with Tri-Disaster (it resets when you use DWT and Phoenix) and spread with Bane if needed, which at lvl 78 refreshes the duration on everything except your target. So easy to keep 'em rollin' it rarely feels like a chore but because of that they don't feel impactful. I do really enjoy the various layers of damage though.

I don't particularly enjoy Scholar but it is very nice to have at times.

[ty_taurus]

From 2.0-4.55, I was more of a Healer, but Summoner was my go-to DPS. I'm now all-in on Dancer (which doesn't have anything to do with the way the job plays), and my experience with Summoner in 5.0 isn't as developed, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

The change from Egi Assaults being oGCD to GCD is a really nice change in my opinion. Before that, it felt like oGCD weaving hell, and even feels a little intense still. I imagine people who are spending all their time into Summoner are probably enjoying the busy rotation because it keeps you invested, but it would be nice if it was a tad bit more forgiving.

My biggest complain though is how disjointed it feels. You have five main categories of DPS tools: Ruin + Ruin II/IV Weaving, DoT Management, Aetherflow Actions (ED/ES + Fester/Painflare), Egi Assaults, and your Trance/Summoning Rotation. Most of these feel very disconnected, like your Aetherflow actions used to be a central component of the Summoner's kit, but now that it has nothing to do with the summoning rotation, it just feels like extra busy work that has nothing to do with the rest of our tools anymore, except DoTs and Fester. The Egi Assaults also feel like they're just kinda there, as well.

I want to see more cohesion within the kit so it's less all over the place and more focused. Not everything needs to all flow together in one giant machine. The DoTs and Tri-Disaster, for example, are fine as they are. I think it may be time to drop Aetherflow altogether since it's basically a vestigial limb at this point. I'd also be kinda into the idea of Egi Assaults replacing Ruin spells while your pet is summoned.

Also, could we maybe get some attacks from other primals? Like I'm not expecting us to summon egis or demis of primals like Ravana, Bismarck, or others, but what about oGCD attacks where we briefly summon those Primals in partial form for their signature attacks before they disappear? We could even have Aetherpact Change to Lakshmi's Alluring Embrace. Same effect, but more themed around actual summoning.

Again, I definitely have less experience with Summoner now more than ever, so my opinions aren't as useful as someone who's been maining it.

[Tulzscha]

@ty_taurus That's true, its parts don't feel like they belong together anymore and if you don't spend much time with it it can be kinda overwhelming, but since there isn't any variation it kinda needs a lot to stay interesting for a while methinks (I enjoyed the ogcd weaving hell lol). It's probably not the best job to only play once in a while. It is a whole hell of a lot more forgiving than it used to be though.

[ty_taurus]

@ty_taurus That's true, its parts don't feel like they belong together anymore and if you don't spend much time with it it can be kinda overwhelming, but since there isn't any variation it kinda needs a lot to stay interesting for a while methinks (I enjoyed the ogcd weaving hell lol). It's probably not the best job to only play once in a while. It is a whole hell of a lot more forgiving than it used to be though.

I think the job just needs to be cleaned up from bottom up. Both Summoner and Scholar always feel like the Devs just kinda throw more things on top without spending a lot of time cleaning up what's underneath. Like Physick... Why is it just there? Like We don't need Vercure, but can't we just have it upgrade into literally anything else rather than it just sit there? I'd be fine with Aetherpact replacing it even. It just feels very disorganized for it to sit around.

[Tulzscha]

I think the job just needs to be cleaned up from bottom up. Both Summoner and Scholar always feel like the Devs just kinda throw more things on top without spending a lot of time cleaning up what's underneath. Like Physick... Why is it just there? Like We don't need Vercure, but can't we just have it upgrade into literally anything else rather than it just sit there? I'd be fine with Aetherpact replacing it even. It just feels very disorganized for it to sit around.

Yeah I know what you mean. They've done a little cleaning but I get the feeling they don't want to tear it apart all at once. It could be that they want to get rid of Aetherflow so first they detach it from DWT then remove it later so it's not as jarring for the players or as much work to rebalance, or they like it but aren't sure what to do with it because the new Phoenix is super awesome but having all this stuff connected is just too damn much, idk. Can only guess. All I know is it's mostly gotten better over time and hopefully that trend continues.

Was Physick ever useful? Maybe for healing pets before they were immune? Such a silly ability. I spam it when there's nothing to attack and it's just lol. Like some over-eager kid trying to help their parents but not actually helping and kinda just getting in the way. "Look ma look at me I'm halping look look!!" x.x

[ty_taurus]

Yeah I know what you mean. They've done a little cleaning but I get the feeling they don't want to tear it apart all at once. It could be that they want to get rid of Aetherflow so first they detach it from DWT then remove it later so it's not as jarring for the players or as much work to rebalance, or they like it but aren't sure what to do with it because the new Phoenix is super awesome but having all this stuff connected is just too damn much, idk. Can only guess. All I know is it's mostly gotten better over time and hopefully that trend continues.

Was Physick ever useful? Maybe for healing pets before they were immune? Such a silly ability. I spam it when there's nothing to attack and it's just lol. Like some over-eager kid trying to help their parents but not actually helping and kinda just getting in the way. "Look ma look at me I'm halping look look!!" x.x

From 1-49, caster gear grants you Intelligence and Mind regardless of role, so for a while it was useful. Once Casters drop Mind, though, Physick heals less than auto-attacks. Also I don't necessarily mean throw everything out and start fresh when I say clean it from the bottom up. If it were me, I'd start by identifying Summoner's current core, which I would say is the Demi-Primals and try to rebuild around that in some ways, adding elements that blend nicely with it and cutting out whatever feels completely irrelevant. Then fill in the blanks. The DoT's and Tri-Disaster, I think, make for good filler actions to give you something to do while your cool downs are all burned, even if that doesn't make up a ton of time currently, and Tri-Disaster is still loosely connected thanks to the CD reset when going into trance.

[Zeyphr_Darkshadow]

My biggest complain though is how disjointed it feels. You have five main categories of DPS tools: Ruin + Ruin II/IV Weaving, DoT Management, Aetherflow Actions (ED/ES + Fester/Painflare), Egi Assaults, and your Trance/Summoning Rotation. Most of these feel very disconnected, like your Aetherflow actions used to be a central component of the Summoner's kit, but now that it has nothing to do with the summoning rotation, it just feels like extra busy work that has nothing to do with the rest of our tools anymore, except DoTs and Fester. The Egi Assaults also feel like they're just kinda there, as well.

I want to see more cohesion within the kit so it's less all over the place and more focused. Not everything needs to all flow together in one giant machine. The DoTs and Tri-Disaster, for example, are fine as they are. I think it may be time to drop Aetherflow altogether since it's basically a vestigial limb at this point. I'd also be kinda into the idea of Egi Assaults replacing Ruin spells while your pet is summoned.

Also, could we maybe get some attacks from other primals? Like I'm not expecting us to summon egis or demis of primals like Ravana, Bismarck, or others, but what about oGCD attacks where we briefly summon those Primals in partial form for their signature attacks before they disappear? We could even have Aetherpact Change to Lakshmi's Alluring Embrace. Same effect, but more themed around actual summoning.

Again, I definitely have less experience with Summoner now more than ever, so my opinions aren't as useful as someone who's been maining it.

I completely agree with everything you just said. The job feels alot more quantity over quality, and you are spot on when you said that certain mechanics feel "tacked on" because... why? SMN is the job I always have the most in depth conversations about with friends, and how it could be changed and improved but your ideas are actually the best i've heard so far.