Dragoon's Piercing Talon: Remove or Rework

[Syrus_Draco]

For a long time, Piercing Talon has been widely regarded as a useless skill with DRG, especially in the Savage Raid scene. This tier has proved to be challenging for melee, and even with forced down time, Piercing Talon still feels really bad to use. Let's compare.

SAM: 3 GCD combo
-Has the ability to Enhance Enpi with their back step, increase Enpi potency
-Enpi naturally gives Kenki as a DPS resource

NIN: 3 GCD combo
-Throwing Daggers naturally gives Ninki as a DPS resource
-3 Ninjitsu can be used at 15 yalms minimum for single target with high damage potency

MNK: 3 GCD combo
-Meditate allows gathering Chakra stacks that can convert to DPS
-Can maintain GL with Form Shift and Position their rotation on a stance they want to be in

DRG: 5 GCD combo
-Piercing Talon gains nothing

It is better to do a Doom Spike combo as Doom Spike (170) itself has a higher potency than Piercing Talon (150), and the combo refreshes Dragon Blood. The only thing Piercing Talon has is that it's range is 5 yalms longer than Doom Spike.

The other melees have a 3 GCD combo, therefore they can plan out when to start using their range abilities a bit easier. Because DRG has a 5 GCD combo AND Raiden Thrust naturally encourages to keep the combo rolling, it feels really bad to interrupt your long 5 GCD combo with Piercing Talon. You don't want to lose those high potency attacks and drop or potentially lose Raiden Thrust either. Interrupting a 5 GCD combo feels way more punishing than interrupting a 3 GCD combo.

What Do We Do With Piercing Talon?

-Get rid of this ability and switch in a useful ability
In the past devs have worked on getting rid of abilities with little to no use, or reworking abilities to have a viable use in the rotation. This ability desperately needs that. BUT if you plan to keep Piercing Talon then...

-Rework Piercing Talong
--Make this skill NOT interrupt combos. For a job that has the most GCD combos I don't think this is asking too much, especially when it has such a low potency

-Increase the potency or something to make it worth it. Doom Spike combo is way better when forced to move out of range, so there is no point in choosing a lower potency attack. The increased potency would have to be a value that surpasses using the whole Doom Spike combo over those 3 GCDs

-Maybe give DRG a ranged combo ability??? This would keep in theme with DRG having the longest combo or something. Not a fan of this idea myself.

-When using Piercing Talon, give it some form of DPS return. The other melee jobs gain some form of DPS return when forced to use their range attack. SAM gets kinki, NIN gets ninki, MNK gets chakra stacks, keeps GL, and they can place their combo where they want it. Why doesn't DRG get any return?
---And before you suggest "Piercing Talon should refresh Dragon Blood" that feels like a slap in the face. It's -really- easy to maintain Dragon Blood in SHB -and- one can just tap Dragon Blood again to refresh it back up to 30 seconds.
---Adding a Dragon Eye or Mirage Dive would mess up the alignment of how DRGs want to use their Dragon Life with their buffs.

I don't have all the answers, but I am begging the dev team to try and find a solution for this skill.
-It feels really bad to use (breaks your long string of combos)
-It has a lower potency than the Doom Spike combo

[QooEr]

I'd rather not have them remove it. It's the only thing drg has to kite mobs around in deep dungeons

[SpeckledBurd]

Monk isn't much better off than Dragoon in this regard. Meditate itself doesn't do damage at all unlike Enpi/Throwing dagger and each Chakra equates to a pittance of potency (74, half of a piercing Talon). Further the amount of Chakra you build during downtime is frequently inconsistent due to Chakra building randomly, so you'll frequently enter a boss jump or a disengage where you can only build 1-2 Chakra (Or half of to a single Piercing talon). Form Shift is also more akin to Blood of the Dragon (the action not the buff) for keeping up Greased Lightning than a ranged attack like Enpi or Throwing Dagger.

However in I'd agree that ranged skills shouldn't break combos in general.

[Rilifane]

It's really weird that DRG has the longest combos but is also punished more for disengaging than some other melees. Making Piercing Talon not interrupt combos would already help; it's not like DRGs will suddenly start spamming it with its low potency.
It's just so you have something to do to keep uptime that's not a dps loss.
Having a skill that's a dps loss in most scenarios over doing nothing is like a slap in the face.

[SpeckledBurd]

It's really weird that DRG has the longest combos but is also punished more for disengaging than some other melees. Making Piercing Talon not interrupt combos would already help; it's not like DRGs will suddenly start spamming it with its low potency.
It's just so you have something to do to keep uptime that's not a dps loss.
Having a skill that's a dps loss in most scenarios over doing nothing is like a slap in the face.

*Looks at Monk*

*Sees Fists of Earth, Fists of Fire, Tornado Kick, and Six Sided Star*

Yeah I know that feeling.

[Mahrze]

*Looks at Monk*

*Sees Fists of Earth, Fists of Fire, Tornado Kick, and Six Sided Star*

Yeah I know that feeling.

They at least have a skill that lets them hit from a distance *looks at MNK's kit never having anything of the sort*

[Shurrikhan]

They at least have a skill that lets them hit from a distance *looks at MNK's kit never having anything of the sort*

You effectively do though. Meditation. It makes no difference whether you hit the enemy with that 123.3 ppgcd, or a relative 172.67 ppgcd, now or later when back in range of the boss.

Sure, Chakra can cap, but Dragoon likewise has only 1 GCD in 10 where it's not a damage loss to use Piercing Talon at all over a single GCD of downtime. At least Meditation doesn't break combos.

Heck, Meditation was by far and away the best ranged skill among melee back in Heavensward, before TFC faced relative nerfs to make room for Deep Meditation alongside the much-increased threat of resource-capping.

It's a far less a "Monk doesn't have a Ranged skill" problem (it does, and it was the highest relative ppGCD of them despite not even breaking combos, though now SAM takes that mantle). It's a matter of Monk having a poorly thought-out gauge and all other ranged skills among melee needing a serious rework.

[Shurrikhan]

On topic: Maybe upgrade Piercing Talon baseline and then again, later, into Dragonkiller at level 64 or so when having progressed a combo. Dragonkiller would then deal additional potency based on your current combo progress and count as if having used True Thrust or Doom Spike. This would, moreover, allow for a forking rotation by putting the potency of having used Dragonkiller to end a combo early and more quickly advance the next situationally equal to or, in cases of CT misalignment, even greater than continuing your combo as normal.

I feel like there should be a cost for not timing your combos around melee-downtime, but unlike Samurai who can swap around Yukikaze vs Gekko/Kasha and its Iaijutsu casts, Dragoon can't... realign anything. Arguably Fuma, Raiton, and Hyosho probably ought to have a larger impact on pacing to allow for a knowledgeable NIN to complete a combo just before melee downtime as well, but even then it likely needs to regain the rotational flexibility it had when Shadow Fang wasn't merely a CD in order to regain control over timing/pacing for melee-downtime.

There should be GCDs which, when aligned to through good use of one's kit, the ranged skill is purely free damage, but all other GCDs should have some manner of cost, some even exceeding that of merely waiting for up to 1.5 GCDs to attack again. And, personally, I like that the Doom Spike combo might see use in single-target.

[Syrus_Draco]

They at least have a skill that lets them hit from a distance *looks at MNK's kit never having anything of the sort*

You completely missed the point of the thread. It may not be a ranged skill, but MNKs do have Meditate that does not break combos and builds up to damage that is significant to their dps. You can always take a chance and make a thread asking the devs to give MNK Chi Blast or something. The whole point is to make Piercing Talon useful, because in its current state it feels like a bad skill.

[Syrus_Draco]

And, personally, I like that the Doom Spike combo might see use in single-target.

I've used Doom Spike combo when I am forced out of melee range for a very long period of time (Shiva Savage Icelit), it's just further annoys me how we're given Piercing Talon, but there's no point when Doom Spike combo is way better. It'll break my rotation combo sure, but it eclipses Piercing Talon.