Dungeons need some spice!

[Jirah]

Even the dungeons you mentioned, while good, aren't as interesting as they were back in 1.0.
They were challenging. They had multiple exits, optional bosses, speedrun rewards, gear worth bringing to endgame, you name it!

Dungeons have turned into less and less of a priority. With hunt trains, and various other methods of gaining tomestones you don't need to grind them out like we used to. On top of they we've gone from 3 dungeons a patch to maybe 1.
Honestly, nows a good a time than ever to make them more challenging content again. Sure they'd take up more time, and they probably won't reward us like they used to, but at least they could be engaging.

I realize it'll probably never happen. Cookie cutter dungeons are what we've had for years now and that probably won't change. All we can do is hope for a Baldesion Arsenal 2, it's the closest thing we've had.

I’m down for Savage dungeons, careful planing, short and powerful bosses, meaningful loot, maybe do somthing like L4D where every encounter is randomizes for replay-ability it’s almost like a raid! I dream of that day maybe when FF14 gets a “Rapsodys Final” like ff11 did and they need to really think of how to keep subs happy, YoshiP and his team have the brains to do it but maybe their priories need to be realigned and maybe take a risk

They did for 2.0 after all

[Shurrikhan]

They tried - people said no they don't want it.

And, at least here, as many have said they did and want those more challenging dungeons back.

Which official poll unbeknownst to most are you consulting here?

[DrWho2010]

And, at least here, as many have said they did and want those more challenging dungeons back.

Which official poll unbeknownst to most are you consulting here?

There's always vocal minorities here on the forums for both sides of the argument. But all we have to look at is how the devs have planned things out over the course of the game. They can see from their own data how people want things from what the results look like. We only have ourselves as the playerbase to blame for how things have turned out.

[Liam_Harper]

they've flat out stated they're not interested in making a mythic+ system in XIV. they're too worried about if the healer dies and there's no way to continue if it's made too harsh for just what's seen for dungeons as "casual" content.

Which makes no sense. Just look at the healer forums, it's not a vocal minority there, we're all practically begging for something engaging to heal. I'd spend all day in there healing. It was never an issue in WoW, they have a formula that has been tested for them and proven to work and they just have to take it. But they stubbornly refuse. It's frustrating how little they understand healers this expansion.

Dungeons don't have to be casual only, in the same way casual raids have a Savage mode too.

They have no data because they haven't tried a Savage mode of dungeons separate from the roulette. People complained in the past because the hard dungeons were tied to MSQ or popped up when they queued for their daily tomes. What we're asking for is something separate, where the casual version is untouched.

[Rilifane]

There's always vocal minorities here on the forums for both sides of the argument. But all we have to look at is how the devs have planned things out over the course of the game. They can see from their own data how people want things from what the results look like. We only have ourselves as the playerbase to blame for how things have turned out.

It's true that devs have their data but don't assume they know everything just because of that. They are still humans and not perfectly objective machines. They have their own view of how things should be and that may not always be what the majority agrees with.
If they did, things like the signifcant drop in healer mains with ShB wouldn't have happened. It's not just a vocal minority in the forum, it was and still is plain as day because healer queue times have never been shorter and they are often the last slot to fill in PF. No matter the hour.

And it has been critizied ever since they first got rid of somewhat challenging dungeons that this game lacks content that is the middle ground between casual content and endgame content.
A system similiar to M+ from WoW would offer precisely that. And it has pretty insane longevity for much smaller design costs than e.g. a savage tier.
Besides, while the first level would likely barely be more difficult than current dungeon iterations and thus easy enough to pass for random DF groups it's only at higher levels that there is a signifcant risk involved and mistakes get more severly punished the higher you get.
But you don't expect to queue via DF for a M+ 10 dungeon and clear it by rolling your cat over your keyboard. It's a smooth increase in difficulty not some insane jump from faceroll to savage like difficulty you seem to assume.
You could queue for lower levels via DF and likely clear it without much trouble as they are supposed to be your starting point and will switch to PF and mini statics for high levels.

It's not mutually exclusive with our current dungeons.
As Liam said, dungeons don't have to be casual only. Raids have a normal mode, dungeons can get a "savage" mode.
It can offer alternative way of gearing up, it offers challenge outside of ex and beyond and the best part is that you can always decide how far you want to take it in terms of difficulty.

[DrWho2010]

except the way i see it is that people will see that a mythic + system is there and they'll step into it when they're clearly not supposed to be there (just like every ex/savage piece of content) and the wave of complaints will start to flood in. then since it's just dungeons people will demand that either it get nerfed or given special consideration, when the devs have clearly said they're more interested in creating new and different types of gameplay experiences rather than just retooling old things. I mean look at HoH. there's a reason we don't have yet another iteration of this in 5.x (and we're not getting one either). it's because while it it was a slap of paint on the PotD system it got old real fast. putting their resources into Baldesion Arsenal was much better for Stormblood.

And then there's the problem of rewards for a mythic plus system. Every time this topic comes up i never see a compelling reason to do so other than just "the challenge of it". every suggestion i've seen from people for a reward for doing mythic+ hasn't ever been something that would make me say, "hmm I would like something like that to be a reward".

[QooEr]

And then there's the problem of rewards for a mythic plus system. Every time this topic comes up i never see a compelling reason to do so other than just "the challenge of it". every suggestion i've seen from people for a reward for doing mythic+ hasn't ever been something that would make me say, "hmm I would like something like that to be a reward".

Savage dungeons, if added later into a patch cycle, could either drop savage ilv gear or even not at all. If a savage dungeon just dropped a title or a mount I would do it. They could also drop shiny gear like ultimates do for replayability

A very common complaint is that there's nothing to use your bis on; there's practically no purpose to getting it. Only when ultimates were added did bis have some significance, but even then there's not ultimates every raid cycle. Savage dungeons would give raiders something to do while the next patch comes around


Your "people will show up unprepared and cry about it" argument makes no sense. Simply slap the word (savage) or something similar to it's name and that will make people think it's more than just a regular casual dungeon. If you're that worried raise the min ilv

[Jirah]

I close this off with “what do they possibly have to lose for making dungeons more complex” complaints? Their will always be complaints look at the games current state. It’s not a dark age of FF14 it’s not it’s hayday but complaints are always present

[Shurrikhan]

except the way i see it is that people will see that a mythic + system is there and they'll step into it when they're clearly not supposed to be there (just like every ex/savage piece of content)...

Isn't part of the beauty of a Mythic + system largely that it can be easily configured not to permit access to a given difficulty level until you have finished the level immediately before it? Beyond that, the situation is identical to that of Savage.

For the very first Savage dungeon, your only safeties are the completion of Normal mode and a higher ilvl requirement. For each thereafter, it's completion of the difficult content immediately before it. In Savage, that means E5, 6, and 7 for access to 8, for instance; in "Mythic+" that means Savage, +1, +2, and +3 for access to +4.

We're free to add further restrictions, such as SSS output, ilvl, or prior level completions, beyond WoW's incredibly loose requirements (largely for the option to carry friends, especially since their levels scale up separately for each week, always starting from 0 and thus forcing the strongest players to briefly mix with the weaker participants).