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  1. #11
    Player
    aodhan_ofinnegain's Avatar
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    Nov 2017
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    201
    Character
    Aodhan O'finnegain
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Raw Intuition and Nascent Flash sharing a cooldown while MTing has the effect that one of them has a greater benefit, given the right situation. That is not a design flaw, that is clever design because your choice is no longer binary but rather depending on other factors of your kit, such as "do I have a combo ender / gauge spenders / infuriate when using this" or "will mitigating two auto attacks / a buster outweigh the healing benefit of NF through damage mitigated".
    Let's not kid ourselves here, most WARs pick NF over RI 90% of the time, and then a handful cry when they have to target someone. Honestly I think having a target requirement is a fair balancing check on the power of the skill. Sharing a recast with RI is kinda weak as a limitation on the skill. Honestly, I'm more for leave it as it is, it doesn't need adjusting of any kind.

    WAR already has free self heal from Equilibrium, while also gets healed from Thrill of Battle (plus Convalescence for both GCD and oGCD healing), and gains healing passively from Storm's Path. So WAR is not as broken AF compared to HW and SB in self healing, it's still got the most free healing without sacrificing DPS or resource.

    Personally, I think WAR doesn't need anymore free healing without any strings attached, but have restrictions on further self-healing moving forward.
    (2)
    Last edited by aodhan_ofinnegain; 03-27-2020 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #12
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
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    Oct 2017
    Location
    Ul'Dah
    Posts
    303
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves here, most WARs pick NF over RI 90% of the time, and then a handful cry when they have to target someone. Honestly I think having a target requirement is a fair balancing check on the power of the skill. Sharing a recast with RI is kinda weak as a limitation on the skill. Honestly, I'm more for leave it as it is, it doesn't need adjusting of any kind.

    WAR already has free self heal from Equilibrium, while also gets healed from Thrill of Battle (plus Convalescence for both GCD and oGCD healing), and gains healing passively from Storm's Path. So WAR is not as broken AF compared to HW and SB in self healing, it's still got the most free healing without sacrificing DPS or resource.

    Personally, I think WAR doesn't need anymore free healing without any strings attached, but have restrictions on further self-healing moving forward.
    What this effectively would change is allowing WARs who are MT / current tank (i.e. where 90% of the time there is no benefit to apply to anyone else) to use Nascent Flash without requiring a macro for swift use or without having to learn hot-swapping targets to use it. This would only make the input easier, the actual use would be identical as before.
    Let it be clear that you are trying to deny Quality of Life for input with a pathetic appeal to balance Nascent Flash when it doesn't affect the power at all and the exact same QoL has already been given to DRG's Dragon Sight.
    (4)

  3. #13
    Player
    shao32's Avatar
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    Apr 2015
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    arcadis
    Posts
    1,602
    Character
    Shao Kuraisenshi
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Nedkel View Post
    Stormblood warrior has been nerfed to the ground and given nascent flash to give SOME of his healing back to him, the "support" component of this skills is useless in practice and does not make any difference almost at all.
    The job is a shadow of himself since 5.0 came out, it has it worse than drk that you are used to complain about so much.
    WAR self-healing in heavenward was just OP, the job was invincible during berserk every 60s over what? 15-20s? It was insane and needs to be nerfed yeah and still WAR keep the nature of self healing with equilibrium, thrill of ballte, storm path, steel cyclone (stormblood) and now nascent flash, the job was to much those days and thank good bloodbath was gone.

    Still WAR have with DRK one of the best defensive kit of the game and the difference of DPS is none despite WAR is equal/surpass DRK so I fail to understand how it have it worse.

    Now I don't complaint about DRK performance but DRK gameplay Wich is a different thing, I could care less about DRK performance right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    snip
    It's pretty clear, WAR don't have the raw intuition vs nascent flash barrier for nothing, one self mitigation only, the other can only being used on others, it's simple and fit the mold every tank is forced to fit right now and I consider they make a mistake adding self-healing since ppl use it over his selfish counterpart by a mile, if nascent flash didn't have the self healing trait from the begining none of this complains would have ever seen the light of your minds.

    Now the raw intuition and why nascent flash should get a Nerf on self use is simple, if they allow the use of nascent flash on yourself it will become a struggle of Wich one is the useless one, something like the eos/selene drama every expansion, and the clear winner right now is nascent flash so you now what will happen, well it's already happening, every proper WAR avoid raw and use nascent flash only while they manage the rest of the kit which is braindead easy thanks to the lack of TB.

    So or they remove raw intuition and make nascent flash a 50% self-heal +10% mitigation for both personal use only and partner use only or they remove the self-healing and end with this drama once for all, otherwise one of the 2 skills will become the pariah and raw is the the one right now that's why ppl ask for nascent become more easy to use on yourself.
    (7)
    Last edited by shao32; 03-27-2020 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Wording sorry
    SHB DRK is a WAR who learn some magic shintens.

    Delirium rework request for 5.x: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/405337-5.0-Dark-knight-request-Delirium-rework

  4. #14
    Player
    aodhan_ofinnegain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    201
    Character
    Aodhan O'finnegain
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Let it be clear that you are trying to deny Quality of Life for input with a pathetic appeal to balance Nascent Flash when it doesn't affect the power at all and the exact same QoL has already been given to DRG's Dragon Sight.
    So, okay sure buddy, disregard the plethora of self-healing that I listed off that WAR already has for free, and cherry pick, to suit your argument, good job buddy.

    The devs clearly designed the skill to actually make it useful in the OT role since that was a common complaint in SB against Paladin holding a monopoly on OT skills. I've had many WAR expect me to pull and MT as a PLD back in SB (lul). Now that was the definition of clunky.

    The way I see it, if they remove the targeting requirement for Nascent Flash, no WAR is ever gonna use the Nascent Glint aspect like at all bar maybe a very small portion. Which is the equivalent of a DRG cucking a party member of 5% damage every time because targeting is "clunky", it's objectively bad not to target someone as DRG with Dragon Sight.

    It's not denying QoL for the sake of it, nor using balance for the sake of hiding behind some magical word. I think there has to be some limitations in place for that sheer amount of healing that can be done with NF. Otherwise make clemency oGCD and require no mp, with current potency, while still affected by Requiescat and still be spammable, but that's quite absurd though. Clemency has a cost because it is that strong, so NF to have something minor like a target requirement is a fair trade off for it's strength.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player
    Sqwall's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Sqwall Lionheart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    Honestly I feel everyone is arguing about the usefulness of the skill versus the clunkyness of the skill.

    Remember I play on PS4 with a controller. This can be cumbersome to cycle threw party members and even worse for 8 man raids.

    I think we can all agree that the skill could use some QOL to avoid making a macro for it to just simply work. In a game where speed and GCD's matter greatly I fail to see how everyone is ok with how this skill works.

    It needs reworked. If MNK get's form shift QOL to refresh stacks then I don't understand the problem for making nascent glint an AOE without having to target. Whats the big deal? Why fight it?
    (2)

  6. #16
    Player
    aodhan_ofinnegain's Avatar
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    Nov 2017
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    201
    Character
    Aodhan O'finnegain
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sqwall View Post
    Honestly I feel everyone is arguing about the usefulness of the skill versus the clunkyness of the skill.

    Remember I play on PS4 with a controller. This can be cumbersome to cycle threw party members and even worse for 8 man raids.

    I think we can all agree that the skill could use some QOL to avoid making a macro for it to just simply work. In a game where speed and GCD's matter greatly I fail to see how everyone is ok with how this skill works.

    It needs reworked. If MNK get's form shift QOL to refresh stacks then I don't understand the problem for making nascent glint an AOE without having to target. Whats the big deal? Why fight it?
    I play with controller too, and if you use a macro it eliminates the majority of the clunk.

    /ac "Nascent Flash" <2>
    /micon "Nascent Flash"

    works the same for Shirk, Cover, Intervention, TBN and HoS.

    Thing is you can cry all you want about targeting, but the rest of the tanks have to deal with it. It is not a WAR only issue. For the other tanks we use macros that do work to remedy the clunkyiness. The only issue is sometimes macros do not queue properly, but WARs NF is the only support skill that has the advantage of working even if late to apply as it can still heal up the targeted party member and self, while, Intervention and HoS are useless after the damage, while TBN, if it doesn't break costs the Dark knight an Edge / Flood. So even then WAR benefits while Dark Knight suffers a loss.

    If you remove Shake it Off to gain AoE Nascent Glint at a reduced amount of healing of course, then sure, it would be more thematic to WAR, but while it has one, it should not have the other. But for both that might be an expansion skill but there should be an equivalent skill for the other three tanks to keep the balance across the four tanks toolkits.
    (3)
    Last edited by aodhan_ofinnegain; 03-28-2020 at 09:40 AM.

  7. #17
    Player
    Sqwall's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Sqwall Lionheart
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain View Post
    I play with controller too, and if you use a macro it eliminates the majority of the clunk.

    /ac "Nascent Flash" <2>
    /micon "Nascent Flash"

    works the same for Shirk, Cover, Intervention, TBN and HoS.

    Thing is you can cry all you want about targeting, but the rest of the tanks have to deal with it. It is not a WAR only issue. For the other tanks we use macros that do work to remedy the clunkyiness. The only issue is sometimes macros do not queue properly, but WARs NF is the only support skill that has the advantage of working even if late to apply as it can still heal up the targeted party member and self, while, Intervention and HoS are useless after the damage, while TBN, if it doesn't break costs the Dark knight an Edge / Flood. So even then WAR benefits while Dark Knight suffers a loss.

    If you remove Shake it Off to gain AoE Nascent Glint at a reduced amount of healing of course, then sure, it would be more thematic to WAR, but while it has one, it should not have the other. But for both that might be an expansion skill but there should be an equivalent skill for the other three tanks to keep the balance across the four tanks toolkits.
    Man I don't understand the need for others to BLINDLY think that they are constantly right on a forum. I didn't ask for purest to come on here and keep pushing the idea that they are the only right people to ever grace the forums. You need to understand the reason for this post. WHY DO WE NEED A MACRO TO MAKE A SKILL BETTER? Stop defending the real problem, and understand that it is just a clunky skill. Does it work YES. I don't deny that, and if you understood my posts, I don't think it's a trash skill. Just cumbersome in it's execution. I want QOL, and if not reworking the skill altogether then so be it. Just make it better to use.

    Get your head out of the dirt and take it for what it is. I clunky cumbersome skill that needs TLC for it to work correctly and effectively. Get over yourself.
    (1)

  8. #18
    Player
    Kabooa's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    3,470
    Character
    Jace Ossura
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 80
    I just want to point out a 2000 potency AoE heal for Warrior on a 90s cooldown would be on par with White Mages and Assize, if not stronger.
    (2)

  9. #19
    Player
    aodhan_ofinnegain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    201
    Character
    Aodhan O'finnegain
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sqwall View Post
    Man I don't understand the need for others to BLINDLY think that they are constantly right on a forum. I didn't ask for purest to come on here and keep pushing the idea that they are the only right people to ever grace the forums. You need to understand the reason for this post. WHY DO WE NEED A MACRO TO MAKE A SKILL BETTER? Stop defending the real problem, and understand that it is just a clunky skill. Does it work YES. I don't deny that, and if you understood my posts, I don't think it's a trash skill. Just cumbersome in it's execution. I want QOL, and if not reworking the skill altogether then so be it. Just make it better to use.

    Get your head out of the dirt and take it for what it is. I clunky cumbersome skill that needs TLC for it to work correctly and effectively. Get over yourself.
    Okay so now you're just getting entitled. I am not always correct and will happily concede if proven to be wrong, however, cry like a little baby over something so minor is just sad, and then throw out crappy broken ideas for QoL and not consider balancing issues is tantamount to idiocy. Just to let you know devs do design jobs and their skills with balance in mind, it's why GNB was under-powered in the media tour, but is now the top DPS tank, or why nerfs happen to some jobs.

    Also "purest" lmfao what are you smoking? I'm a purest for thinking there should be some sort of trade off for strong skills? okay buddy whatever xD

    DRK has a 3k mp trade off, that gets refunded ONLY if the TBN breaks, if it doesn't it loses 3k MP. Paladin has to spend 2k MP and a GCD to heal itself per heal, which can offset its entire rotation if done outside of Requiescat, but sure why should WAR have trade-off on it's skills right? (GNB not mentioned as it does not have anything quite at that level of strength.)

    Why do we need a macro for shirk, and the other tanks support skills? we don't need to have macros to use them, we can do it manually, but macros make it less clunky, why is that a problem to you. It's an obvious remedy, or do you need the devs to baby you the entire way through xiv. Legit feels like you're complaining for the sake of complaining. Next you're gonna complain that Salted Earth is too clunky, or Asylum for WHM or Sacred Soil on SCH, because they can be clunky to place without the use of targeting macros. But those have been used since 2.x with Shadowflare also.

    Now, at no point did I, in any of my posts in this thread, say Nascent Flash was a trash skill, so calm down and re-read. Someone made a response to my first post and I elaborated on my points, this lead to a further development in discussions, just so you know, thread do not need to stay strict to the OPs topic, tangents can and will happen.

    The devs designed Nascent Flash to be inline with Intervention, TBN, HoS, but with a bit of WAR flavor. However, the devs did not foresee that the bloodbath effect would make it superior to RI in most cases.

    I've been playing this game for 5 years, I know what imbalance in tanks look like, Paladin in HW, Dark Knight in SB, both avoided like the plague nearly. For once tank toolkits are extremely well balanced, so not wanting to see overpowered skills making a return is having my head in the dirt and being full of myself, okay now that's just hilarious xD

    Also joys of the forums I literally do not have to agree with a single word you say, which in this matter I do not, and I am entitled to counter your points, that is the joys of a forum, I can voice my disapproval of your ideas and give my reasons as to why I disagree with your points.
    (2)
    Last edited by aodhan_ofinnegain; 03-28-2020 at 01:04 PM.

  10. #20
    Player
    shao32's Avatar
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    Apr 2015
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    arcadis
    Posts
    1,602
    Character
    Shao Kuraisenshi
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sqwall View Post
    Honestly I feel everyone is arguing about the usefulness of the skill versus the clunkyness of the skill.

    Remember I play on PS4 with a controller. This can be cumbersome to cycle threw party members and even worse for 8 man raids.

    I think we can all agree that the skill could use some QOL to avoid making a macro for it to just simply work. In a game where speed and GCD's matter greatly I fail to see how everyone is ok with how this skill works.

    It needs reworked. If MNK get's form shift QOL to refresh stacks then I don't understand the problem for making nascent glint an AOE without having to target. Whats the big deal? Why fight it?
    I personally play with a controller too despite playing on PC, it's more confy for me since I starting playing on PS3 and I never need a macro to use my targeting skills and I really used TBN on my co-tank often without problems on stormblood and now heart of stone.

    IDK how much experience you have with the game but what you call clunky it's the daily life of a healer that have to Target his party members constantly to throw single target heals when need it as they push they dps with cast bars all the time, nascent flash usage is fair comfy compared to what our green friends have to do.

    The only thing you have to do is push cross down then nascent flash and keep attacking, you can even have a macro for that Wich is a luxury compared to healers that can't have that So no, I don't consider WAR need that QoL at all, it's the slowest job of the game and have the lower apm of the game,it have plenty of time to use nascent flash easily. besides raw intuition it's already in a bad position on the WAR kit and it's comparable to the other tanks skills so they can't buff it to make it better that nascent flash.

    And for the rework I have to inform you we are living a expansion With a great healing and mitigation powercreep, healers don't need WAR getting on their role doing they job, an aoe nascent flash its first unnecessary since the amount of healing we have now it's ridiculous and second can be extremely OP under the right circumstances even making healers save some heals so better a big no, WAR don't need more that what they have now, fun come always first yeah but lets not trow the balance out the window either.
    (2)
    SHB DRK is a WAR who learn some magic shintens.

    Delirium rework request for 5.x: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/405337-5.0-Dark-knight-request-Delirium-rework

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