Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Myon88]

I wouldn't call it core, but it has been around a long time and they are paying a fair price for it relative to red mage's verraise.

Why is Summoner Raise suddenly a core facet of caster identity that is exempt from this, when Summoner possessing Raise like Red Mage does while having nearly as much damage as a selfish Black Mage is robbing the other two casters of THEIR identity?

Seriously now, you know that summoner was around with its raise for 4 years before red mage even existed right? It's an insult to imply they're enroaching on rdm territory, and conversely it is the height of hubris for rdm to think they have a monopoly on utility like that. This is like someone moving into your house and then complaining you're taking up too much space.

If anything, you should be asking why red mage was released with a strictly better raise, and all the while creeping up on summoner damage every patch because of entitled red mage players. No, summoner does not 'possess a raise like red mage', red mage is the one that dares to 'possess damage like summoner' while offering a better raise.

Play black mage at a high level, and you'll see that its identity is crystal clear. Likewise, if you've ever done serious progression where verraise and vercure are critical utility, you'll see rdm does not want for 'identity' either. If you cannot unlock the full potential of a job, the fault lies with yourself.

And what is this about bard? At the 99th percentile it appears all the three ranged jobs are within 2.5% of each other, is that not good enough to satisfy you? You can argue that the ranged as a whole need help, but if you bring up bard specifically, I'm going to have to say that intra-ranged balance looks pretty fine. After all, it's easy to make comparisons within a role where every job brings nothing particularly special to the table, and all the differences are quantitative. This is the fate of the caster role if we allow players to bully SE into watering it down for the masses.

[dinnertime]

Raise topic again?
Raise is fine on Summoner. Yes, Summoner is a tad overtuned because it still does better than the selfish DPS Black Mage and Samurai, but at least the gap isn't so high. Removing Raise from Summoner won't change the numbers it makes because it's not even optimal for Summoner to use it, not even for Red Mage. It's utility that isn't optimized all the time. Sure, it can salvage fights and it suddenly becomes an amazing skill, typically on lower difficulty ones, but again barely optimized after the learning phase. Raise isn't comparable to ogcd/passive support utilities that Bard or Dancer have, and it's always going to be detrimental to DPS since it's a GCD skill. This is why "Raise tax" is also a stupid concept, that and death already punishes the raised person with weaker stats.
I wouldn't mind if they adjusted Devotion instead. It doesn't feel great to use for me to care about it too much.

Anyway it shouldn't surprise people that Summoner has a lot of players lately. It's the flavor of the season job for being top DPS and getting a flattering redesign in 5.1. You see the same thing with healers and tanks, right now being White Mage and Paladin respectively who were notoriously called the worst in previous expansions, but have grown to be the best. People will always flock to whatever is popular, that is just general human nature.

Again, people are on a hyperbole with how overtuned Summoner is honestly. The gap isn't that much, but yes it does need to be dealt with. The balance between the DPS classes right now are pretty good aside from whatever happened to Physical Ranged.

[NaiXizi]

Incorrect,

If SMN had "high firepower" it would be ruling over all of those instances I already linked on the first page... yet it is NOT doing so.
In fact in some cases its towards the bottom of the list. That can only mean one thing.

It does not have "high firepower"... its got moderate firepower. If it had high firepower in ALL situations you might be correct, but its only got "high firepower" in ONE specific type of combat. That specific type of combat is combat that requires High Mobility where the other jobs cannot utilize theirs to their potential.

Talking about professional balance is always in raid, because the need for strict DPS CHECK and strict mechanism processing will make the problem of professional balance more prominent.
** In addition to raid, the dungeon and 24, DPS CHECK is very loose, and the mechanism is simple. Basically, you can play it casually. Even if the dungeon passes for a longer time, it will not make people pay attention to professional balance, and no one will block some professions from letting in.
** Therefore, using the dungeon and 24 to demonstrate, I think it is not rigorous.

[SaitoHikari]

Well, Summoner even having Raise in the first place can be traced back to them being linked to Scholar. That said, if you’re so vehemently set on keeping Raise, then Summoner needs another slight damage nerf OR Black Mage needs a buff to justify their selfishness in comparison. The current situation is completely untenable in the long term, all it takes is another ranged buff or a melee buff for your assumed golden age of casters (which is also largely under the assumption that parties are running double caster rather than double melee) to end with Summoner on top.

As for the ranged role, I’ve always been consistent in arguing that the whole role needs a buff in the first place, but the devs designed themselves into a hole at the same time with the mass gutting of utility that could have justified the lower inherent damage before. So it’s a situation where the role either needs a damage buff or given more utility.

[HeulGDarian]

All im saying is, blue mage would love to be playing with summoner if the rest of the dps dont want to play with us. they also seem to have more fun as well.

Thats my attempt of writing a post with family friendly words cause lord knows there is not enough space for all the non family friendly words to describe this thread and most of your opinions

sincerely a Summoner main

P.S. pls pls pls stop

[Silverquick]

Okay so just don't address the rest of my points then. Also okay you're being a massive cherry picker then? Theres hardly any logs up for dungeons so disregarding because "obviously geared up" is just wrong

That's because you haven't given any explanation from the start that addresses anything I've said at this point.

You FLAT OUT cannot explain to me why magically and mystically Summoner is getting beat sometimes even BADLY in all other content EXCEPT for Savage/Ultimate. You haven't even addressed the VERY FIRST POST I made on this, you just glossed over it and made excuses.

The only thing you've said up to this point amounts to "na uh, Summoner is Uber" without being able to explain ANY Of this.
(Some people even said NO NO Its because SMN has high RDPS, when that was provably false)

Summoner players do not magically and mystically do worst in one kind of content because "they don't care" about it. The question would then be... Well wait... why is it that the players of ALL other jobs magically and mystically DO care?

The frank truth is they all do. The ONLY difference between Savage and Normal is the amount of movement and mechanics (DPS checks aside).
So now magically and mystically the other jobs CAN beat a SMN when there are no mechanics?

That doesn't indicate that SMN has some kind of Uber damage, that indicates that the other jobs cannot use theirs to their full potential in Savage due to those movements and mechanics.

NONE Of what you said fits ANY of the facts up to this point to explain any of this.

SMN isn't Uber and doesn't need a "nerf". Its just fine.

[AbelArchaniEA]

Originally posted on the Japanese forum, but I want to post it again on the English forum, so that more people can discuss it together
I'm an outer zone player, but recently I've seen many posts about professional balance on Japanese and English forums. My point of view is more subjective. Since there is no International Services account, a friend with an account has been asked to post this article.
I am an RDM player and a game added in version 4.3. Since 5.0, I have often been unable to participate in raid copy recruitment as an RDM.
Switch to Cavalier and complete the raid. I didn't mind at first, but since starting to browse some forums, many RDM enthusiasts say that recruiting raids doesn't allow RDM entry, but allows SMN entry. Yes, you can see a lot of such recruitment in the 5.08 version. But then SMN had the same advantages as RDM, Why can't RDM participate?( I don’t know much about other game worlds, but in my game world, there are many such phenomena)
Many RDM enthusiasts are angry at this unfair treatment and demand buff RDMs.
However, many say that RDM has resurrection and group support, so it's not worth strengthening, but I think SMN also has resurrection and group support. Strong reason.
Until 5.2, Yoshi-P also acknowledged that SMN was too powerful, so Debuff had DOT and enhanced RDM. However, with the growing demand for Buff's Remote Physical DPS in the forums, many have stated that Remote Physical DPS is very agile, has a good output environment, and is not worth enhancing. This makes you feel sick and is just like replying to an RDM. You need to look carefully at these statements.
Yes, I looked closely and found that they were discussing SMN issues, much like requesting a buff RDM. SMNs are too powerful and will disrupt the overall profession of DPS. Yes, I think so, let's look at some features.
SMN has revival, group support, hot and operability with minimal loss, ultra-automatic output.
RDM resurrection, group support, weak GCD treatment.
There are mobility and team support in the telephysical profession.
BLM has strong firepower
He is deeply loved by the people, as it is not difficult to make sure that SMN contains many professional features. Choose to use SMN. Some RDM lovers who know me, including me, are very angry at this. They are doing their best to make more firepower to deliver copies using RDM, but it is not as easy as SMN and has high firepower. Some RDM fans have abandoned this profession and have chosen to use SMN to challenge raid.

Start your own static or change your Job. Problem solved. GG

[Nemekh]

This thread has certainly been a bit of a doozy with the usual misuses of statistics for the sake of positions and arguments :^) I'll prob write something more later but it's 7am and I'm due sleep.

@Silverquick - top performances of jobs are already tending to peak uptime so that movement isn't even the reason for differences. It's the whole underlying reason behind why uptime strats get made so that everyone's having a comfier time and can be at more maximal potential. Even SMN wants to minimise movement around Demi-Summons to maximise Wyrm Waves and Scarlet Flames, to slidecast more R3s than to ever have to R2. SMN is definitely up there in general and claiming it's entirely on mobility with regards to mechanics is a classic case of correlation with incorrect causation. People at the top of their game for all jobs have already largely ironed out these problems with regards to fights by now, or if not, are still working on it. That just leaves rotational execution, general damage variance, gear and comp disparities. People are comparing all kinds of fruit thinking they're all apples when they aren't. There are so many moving parts that things are very much not all equal.

[NaiXizi]

Has anyone tried to replace all R3 that SMN needs to sing with R2. How much DPS
Someone in my gaming world has done this test, using 2.42GCD gear. 470 equipment. In version 5.1
Attacking the wooden dummy of E4S, the result is 15450 DPS.

[ReiMakoto]

That's because you haven't given any explanation from the start that addresses anything I've said at this point.

You FLAT OUT cannot explain to me why magically and mystically Summoner is getting beat sometimes even BADLY in all other content EXCEPT for Savage/Ultimate. You haven't even addressed the VERY FIRST POST I made on this, you just glossed over it and made excuses.

The only thing you've said up to this point amounts to "na uh, Summoner is Uber" without being able to explain ANY Of this.
(Some people even said NO NO Its because SMN has high RDPS, when that was provably false)

Summoner players do not magically and mystically do worst in one kind of content because "they don't care" about it. The question would then be... Well wait... why is it that the players of ALL other jobs magically and mystically DO care?

The frank truth is they all do. The ONLY difference between Savage and Normal is the amount of movement and mechanics (DPS checks aside).
So now magically and mystically the other jobs CAN beat a SMN when there are no mechanics?

That doesn't indicate that SMN has some kind of Uber damage, that indicates that the other jobs cannot use theirs to their full potential in Savage due to those movements and mechanics.

NONE Of what you said fits ANY of the facts up to this point to explain any of this.

SMN isn't Uber and doesn't need a "nerf". Its just fine.

I believe Nemekh has covered it mostly in his most recent post. As i said before, people dont care about optimising casual content, so the reason that some jobs do better in the statistics in there can be caused by A) sample size, as there is not as much data there as there is for Savage, and B) skill ceiling. People can do more when not caring about hardcore optimisation cos of how some classes are built.

This also doesnt go back to addressing that it literally doesnt matter who's beating who in casual content, when savage is the only content where dps matters, SMN is winning. SMN could be bottom dps outside of Savage and it literally wouldnt matter because balance is done around savage