Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Akiudo]

No it is not,

It is you misunderstanding just how little RDPS a SMN actually puts out.
SMN has only one party buff and its 5% damage for 15 seconds and that's only once every 3 minutes (CD). Ifrit no longer has the Damaging Shield to other players anymore.

By Contrast the Red Mage Embolden (increases RDM Magic Damage, and other players Melee Damage)... starts out at 10% for 20 seconds... and decreases by 20% every 4 seconds. Its CD is 2 minutes.

Summoner simply does not put out enough RDPS at this point to be significant as a "buff others" job and it is not significant enough to do what you are saying.

But it doesn't take long to look through a lot of logs to see SMN RDPS isn't much different than its ADPS at this point.

that isn't the point, again,

if
smn does 16k dps (personal)+300 as raidbuff
and
blm does 16,1k, no raidbuff

than at this (theoretical) point smn would be stronger than blackmage

BUT
in this same scenario every dancer would buff blackmage over smn, every astro would buff blackmage over summoner, every dragoon would buff blackmage over summoner

this than would show up as
blackmage 17,5k (just for example)
smn 16k

the question is not how much rdps summoner adds, that isn't that much, the question is "on average, how many blackmages will get buffs funneled to them because their personal dps is higher than summoners?"

as everyone and their mother works under the assumption that blackmage/samurai at least win out as far as personal dps is concerned they naturally will get singled out for buffs most of the time, that has nothing to do with the amount a smn buffs the group for, that much while still there indeed isn't "that" much. also i know this may be a hard concept but you don't need to be the absolute strongest class in every content to be op, being the clearly strongest in all the hardest content while at worst "above average" in content way easier all while still offering greater support than every class even above you in what amounts to your weakest kind of content still very much qualifys.

furthermore i never said blackmage/samurai may not very well be stronger in alliance raids, if anything it would make sense for them to be as you can stay in shit and not drop dead if so inclined, and obviously less mobile classes start at a higher baseline, the point however is that buff funneling exists, in fact it happens completly naturally if you want to maximize your own potential, however it makes differences between dps look way better than they in reality are. no i'm not saying smn outright beats blackmage/samurai in alliance raids, i am however saying that the difference thats shown is way smaller in reality than looking at dps rankings makes it out to be, this isn't about smn being 200 dps or so higher, this is about these other classes being 500-1000 lower if not for buff funneling

and again, before someone else needs to remind me how the evil parsing site works . for the alliance raids fflogs actually uses dps, that is the dps actually shown on a parser while hitting the boss, they will still list your raid contribution in a "gave x, received y" way if you open the logs, but the thing you are actually ranked on is in fact simply "dps", single target buffs included

[Miminming]

CMIIW but adps excluded single target buff... so theres almost no point saying blm is getting buffed more etc etc... isnt it?

(also what the point of doing a teamplay maxing burst and buff if pure dps can top their rdps without doing so? i always think pure shouldnt top in rpds but top in adps... )

[Akiudo]

CMIIW but adps excluded single target buff... so theres almost no point saying blm is getting buffed more etc etc... isnt it?

(also what the point of doing a teamplay maxing burst and buff if pure dps can top their rdps without doing so? i always think pure shouldnt top in rpds but top in adps... )

my bad on that, the ranking for the alliance raid is actually pure dps, not adps, thought they changed that whole "excluding single target buffs" around when they switched to rdps rankings, either way it actually lists pure dps, not adps so yes single target buffs count, you can check this out for yourself by comparing some higher end parses if people are bored or whatever, didn't actually knows this myself until i ended up suddenly doing all 99% parses the day i got a dancer buff even though before i only could reach like 94-95, either way feel free to check it, it actually just ranks your dps, so everyone feel free to grab yourself a dancer and move up to the heavens if you still want a great parse.

anyways, will edit my last post as you are right, adps would exclude these things

[Gruntler]

but the thing you are actually ranked on is in fact simply "dps", single target buffs included[/B]

That's untrue. it's rDPS and aDPS, and neither of those are simply your personal dps.

[NaiXizi]

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

Well, what you said is a bit reasonable. I don't know how to reply, but I still feel a bit wrong.
It is better that we eliminate all external factors and just discuss the characteristics of each dps (I am not familiar with physical melee dps, there are no examples, and other familiar people can add)
BLM: Poor mobility, without team assistance and resurrection, but in exchange for high firepower.
SMN: Good mobility, with team support and resurrection, but also high firepower, and the gap with BLM is small.
RDM: Poor mobility, with team assistance and resurrection, medium firepower.
Bard: Good mobility, team support, no resurrection, low firepower.
Dancer: good mobility, with team support and powerful single player support, middle and lower firepower
Machinist: Good mobility, no team assistance, mid-range firepower.
It is not difficult to see that the balance between various occupations is divided into many modules
Mobility, Firepower, Team Assistance, Revival, Manipulation, etc.
There will be a balance between these several. Although no one can achieve an absolute balance, it is clear that there are several occupations that highlight several problems.
The problems with Bard and SMN arise.
So I use these to suggest that the firepower or mobility of debuff SMN to maintain this relative balance can not allow SMN to monopolize many professional characteristics advantages.
Of course Bard needs to boost his firepower to make him similar to Dancer.
I think we can all look at the problem from these perspectives.

[Akiudo]

That's untrue. it's rDPS and aDPS, and neither of those are simply your personal dps.

at least quote me completly, or complete enough, i specifically mentioned it as something unique to the alliance raids, and again for that one its true, you can check it out for yourself, look at the max of any given class for a boss.

look at the top samurai for 9s

max samurai is 16106,5, now the highest ranked samurai has
16106,5 dps
13,858.3 rdps, after 2248,2 dps points get deducted, this include things like 572,3 dps due to devilment and 726,3 due to standart finish.

max summoner on 9s is 15498, the highest ranked summoner again has
15498 dps
13750,7 rdps, dps given 143,4 deduction of 1890,7, including devilment/standart finish and lady of the crown

max ninja is 13847,3, the highest ranked ninja gives us ... drumroll....
13847,3 dps
13,375.5 rdps , added dps 1370,9. dps deducted 1842,7 inclduding devilment/standart finish and lord of crowns.


you can do this for every class, reason why some classes may differ is that the rankings only show the max off the last two weeks, as long as you only look for classes where the max was set more recently or just go back the last 2 months and manually look at the top of every class line to see the correct dps numbers (as in brackets it still will only list the last 2 weeks, whereas if you look at the graph going back the whole time you can see that say monk actually peaked more than 2 weeks ago), and scroll over the graph and take the max number from there again you will see that it perfectly lines up with the top monks DPS, not aDPS, not rDPS, but simply DPS.

don't call me out for spreading misinformation if you cant be bothered to check for yourself. again, FFLOGS ranks the alliance raid based on DPS, not aDPS nor rDPS so single target buffs do indeed affect the rankings quite heavily

[Payadopa]

I prefer a job that's fun to play over balance. The current jobs aren't fun to play compared to before 5.0 .
SE needs to come up with more interesting mechanics than more DPS > rest.

[CKNovel]

I prefer a job that's fun to play over balance. The current jobs aren't fun to play compared to before 5.0 .
SE needs to come up with more interesting mechanics than more DPS > rest.

I agree on that. 4.X MCH was a good idea, but a mechanical mess that needed a lot of fixes and thus, wasn't fun.
Yet, feeling that your job has an impact on the group is a rewarding feeling. That was my main point that made me play MCH during SB.
Rewards are fun.

[Connor]

I know I sound like a broken record lol, but I still think the balance of physical ranged could more easily be adjusted by giving some actually interesting, active-use support abilities instead of just making support a passive activity / non-existent.

Then they can use the active support abilities to ‘throttle’ the max dps of ranged through things like bard song cast times, Step gcd usage, Machinists could sacrifice turret cooldowns to make them give a support effect instead of damage (though that’d be a bit weird considering how they work now lol)

I’ve always liked that Summoner was more of a utility caster as opposed to the pure offense Black Mage or Jack-of-all-trades Red Mage. But I can see why they’re a bit too strong at the moment.

Utility generally requires a sacrifice of some sort, normally of dps related resources or overall dps. Summoner has great utility between Raise, Devotion, Addle, even silly things like the Titan shield and party-wide regen (even if you can’t control when it’s used). But then none of the utility it has serves to ‘throttle’ their damage because it’s always paired with Swiftcast / is oGCD / is passive.

Which is totally logical, if Summoners had to sacrifice movement for dps . But as many have already pointed out, Summoner doesn’t face much of a serious setback by mobility anymore, so there’s not really any kind of ‘sacrifice’ being made for it unless we actually do count things like Titan shield as ‘utility’ and not a ‘defensive cooldown’, and even then it’s a better loss than being dead lol.

Personally I’d be happy if Bards / Dancers / Machinist did 10 dps at 99th percentile in ultimate raids, as long as they have interesting and worthwhile active support abilities to use . I mean, we have melee for the ‘big dps jobs’, casters for the ‘big numbers and high dps with some utility jobs’. I just feel like ranged fits in better as the ‘high utility low dps jobs’ than the ‘medium dps but can run around while attacking’ jobs.

I mean, there currently isn’t any role in the game that actually has a focus on supporting the party on top of their damage. I guess you could argue healers, but their function is almost exclusively healing/dps (the devs made sure of that lol). Ranged might be intended as the ‘support oriented role’, but the playstyle of all three is largely contradictory to the intended style.

I mean, ask yourself if you’ve ever though ‘wow, that Warden’s Paean really supported the party in our fight’ or ‘that improvisation usage really make our lives easier’. And Machinist sadly has nothing left to offer but dps, but again, I don’t think people are generally thinking ‘wow Machinist has great dps and that mobility it has was super useful’

[Zerathor]

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.

Not the current status quo where rdm is 92% of a blm and smn is 95% of a blm (and only appears to outdps it on a certain site because of adds padding). They will be 100% blms, or conversely blm will be nerfed down to their level, and perhaps the entire caster role will be rebalanced around a lower ceiling like the ranged now.

Almost would have an actual point there, if a large portion of fights didn't involve adds or multiple targets. I know it must be a radical notion to assume balance should be considering the type of content that is normally produced, but give it a consideration. As it stands on the majority of fights, with players of the same level of skill, smn will out perform blm while still having access to a raise. Raise should be cut, and nothing else changes. That would be balanced enough. Blm can dominate a fight that isn't multi target, smn will dominate the fights that involve multi target and adds (which will likely be at least 2 fights in a tier).

Because like I said, some people don't actually want balance, they're just looking out for themselves.

Could not have described yourself better.

I agree with your previous point that this is a nice golden age of double caster, but that will inevitably change soon enough with some kind of range buff. And you know which of those 2 casters is going to stay relevant? The one that puts out more damage in most scenarios and has a raise. Mary Sue: the job.