Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[ReiMakoto]

So then you can explain THIS right?
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ty=100&boss=71

And THIS...
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/31

And This...
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...524&metric=dps

And this...
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...520&metric=dps

And this...
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...523&metric=dps

And this.. .
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...difficulty=100

And this...
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ty=100&boss=66

I do not know where you got this idea SMN was dominating ALL types of content... but whoever told you that was lying.

What SMN dominates in is content with a LOT of Movement.

If you had players in that content who actually cared to do good damage then SMN would dominate, there is no need to push damage in these fights and people do not compete, in your dungeons endgame section theres only 100 parses uploaded total, thats nothing. People dont organised static run normal content, so the classes that benefit from that organisiton is shit out of luck.

[Akiudo]

the type of content you are tunnel visioned into.... plays to EVERY strength of the Summoner job.

lets see, summoner dominate in savage raids, summoner dominate in 3 out of 4 normal mode raid turns, summoner dominate in ex trials, normal mode isn't listed, while its pretty fair to assume its the same there lets just say "not enough data" and call this neither a loss nor win for summoner,, it dominates in ultimate and dungeons don't even list class dps as such, if going by dungeons than bard isn't just good but great.

oh and yea, smn actually is in a pretty good spot in the alliance raid, fun fact, the alliance raid actually lists your "regular" dps instead of rdps for rankings, don't know why it does this, but it indeed does, i'd imagine its because of nin and trick attack not being designed for 24 people but no idea really, either way summoner is in a pretty good spot there aswell, like it actually looks like summoner is falling behind, but in reality its very much contender for the top spot on all fights, its just that "pure" dps look better by default as they have no buffs they offer to the group, and if say the blackmage does only 100 personal dps more than the summoner than a dancer would be advised to buff the blackmage, which in turn would widen the gap, add to that that melees will mostly buff each other if given a choice (mostly thinking dragoon and dragon sight range here) and you end up in a situation where certain classes look way better than they actually are, which mostly was the reason for the switch to rdps for rankings to begin with.

so yea, summoner only clearly dominates in all the hardest content, while at worst being in a very good spot in every other bit of content as far as we can tell, certainly the problem lies with only cherrypicking the data set one wants

[Myon88]

TLDR; Get rid of the raise.

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.

Not the current status quo where rdm is 92% of a blm and smn is 95% of a blm (and only appears to outdps it on a certain site because of adds padding). They will be 100% blms, or conversely blm will be nerfed down to their level, and perhaps the entire caster role will be rebalanced around a lower ceiling like the ranged now. After all, if we had all three casters actually capable of doing black mage level dps, the melees and ranged would be in the doghouse even more than they currently are.

How much do you wanna bet though, that the complaints will simply change tack to some other issue. Maybe now it's black mage has to 'work too hard' for the same level of dps, or summoner can dot too well on a bunch of irrelevant fights (just like people are calling dungeon content irrelevant above me). Let it not be said that I didn't call it. Because like I said, some people don't actually want balance, they're just looking out for themselves.

Whatever the case it will be a loss for the game overall. Raise is a big part of why the casters are the most diverse, well designed, and impactful roles in the game right now. And it isn't actually unbalanced, people are just bad or unwilling to play to their respective niches. Watering things down is how you end up with the milquetoast state of the ranged today, where no one really excels in anything and everyone can do the same thing everyone else can. And all this just to attempt to satisfy the crowd that only sees the game as a raiding numbers game. I play blm in speedruns, or dungeons and hunts where the other two fall short. I play rdm in prog and stuff like palace and eureka. And I guess I'm a pretty good summoner too. Ironic isn't it? Despite having the most raiding experience here I also have the most holistic outlook on the game.

It being the least played job in all content other than TEA shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's paid attention to it.

Yes, that's what I said didn't I? There are many reasons why people like or dislike jobs, they're not actuaries that just pick the best one from a pure utilitarian standpoint or something.

And I think I know a thing or two about failures of design yes. This is as good a time as any to remind all of you that during the 2019 media tour 2 months before the launch of Shadowbringers, I (and a couple of my peers) was in here warning of the colossal disaster in store for us that was 5.0-5.1 summoner. I appreciate you giving others the run down on monk, and instead of doing the same I will simply link the same thread I started 9 months ago: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-the-worse

[Silverquick]

dungeons don't even list class dps as such, if going by dungeons than bard isn't just good but great.

Look closely, that Dungeon Damage is segmented specifically to class damage.

I specifically segmented it by damage not speed.

As for the rest... no very few people actually play savage or ultimates for that matter. Guess what the majority of the people in this game play?

Yeah normal dungeon raids. Heck its even hard to get them to play Alliance raids, let alone a Savage raid. BUT at least you CAN get them to play Alliance Raids.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

[Kabooa]

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.[/URL]

Yeah, I'm like 100% okay with this. There's nothing more exciting than having a race with someone else, and there's honestly no better teacher than getting crushed outright - Creating scenarios where this doesn't lead to jobs being obsolete would be the best case to me.

I'm also not responsible for other people.

There was a point, maybe during Heavensward where I might have said one job was harder than the other, but after trapping in Sigmascape across a multitude of roles and jobs, and I've settled on 'Every job has their challenges'.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

[Silverquick]

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

[Miminming]

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

there just if not more as many people who dont do savage and ultimate who pay the same amount of money into this game as you are... and raising the skill ceilling to match the dps output would mean ignoring them (i'll totally welcome it though)

and if you decided to only look at savage cross raise out of the utility, they are useless in them in week 1 or 2 where dps check is still revelant past that and you are still lacking in dps? thats mean people need to hone their player skill instead complaining about their job...

(i realize most people who complain is ussually people with a bad and medicore perf not all but most, they probably cant get a secure spot in PUG or static because of their perf instead of jobs anyway...)

oh and, RDM do need some buff

[ReiMakoto]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well, their cleave is insane as is their general damage, movement isn't why theyre the strongest in savage, in 90%+ range everyone has as close to 100% uptime as possible, its just a matter of the facts its numbers are overtuned. Your sample size for dungeons is actually so small its hardly relevant, there is nothing intrisic to smns pet/ dot design that makes it more powerful in savage, its just its numbers are high.

Edit: For context your're saying the DOT and pet autos are what's making smn so strong, they make up ~20-25% of smns total damage in a fight, which is about the same that Bards Auto's +Dots do in a fight, SMN is just essentially a caster with autoattacks, this is not a case of its class design or archetype only being good for savage, its just a case of number overtune

[ReiMakoto]

there just if not more as many people who dont do savage and ultimate who pay the same amount of money into this game as you are...

and if you decided to only look at savage cross raise out of the utility, they are useless in them in week 1 or 2 where dps check is still revelant past that and you are still lacking in dps? thats mean people need to hone their player skill instead complaining about their job...

(i realize most people who complain is ussually people with a bad and medicore perf not all but most, they probably cant get a secure spot in PUG or static because of their perf instead of jobs anyway...)

oh and, RDM do need some buff

Your money comment is irrevelvant, the people who don't do savage don't need to care about class balance it terms of dps numbers because outside of savage that stuff does not matter in the slightest

[Silverquick]

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well,

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.