Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[NaiXizi]

Originally posted on the Japanese forum, but I want to post it again on the English forum, so that more people can discuss it together
I'm an outer zone player, but recently I've seen many posts about professional balance on Japanese and English forums. My point of view is more subjective. Since there is no International Services account, a friend with an account has been asked to post this article.
I am an RDM player and a game added in version 4.3. Since 5.0, I have often been unable to participate in raid copy recruitment as an RDM.
Switch to Cavalier and complete the raid. I didn't mind at first, but since starting to browse some forums, many RDM enthusiasts say that recruiting raids doesn't allow RDM entry, but allows SMN entry. Yes, you can see a lot of such recruitment in the 5.08 version. But then SMN had the same advantages as RDM, Why can't RDM participate?( I don’t know much about other game worlds, but in my game world, there are many such phenomena)
Many RDM enthusiasts are angry at this unfair treatment and demand buff RDMs.
However, many say that RDM has resurrection and group support, so it's not worth strengthening, but I think SMN also has resurrection and group support. Strong reason.
Until 5.2, Yoshi-P also acknowledged that SMN was too powerful, so Debuff had DOT and enhanced RDM. However, with the growing demand for Buff's Remote Physical DPS in the forums, many have stated that Remote Physical DPS is very agile, has a good output environment, and is not worth enhancing. This makes you feel sick and is just like replying to an RDM. You need to look carefully at these statements.
Yes, I looked closely and found that they were discussing SMN issues, much like requesting a buff RDM. SMNs are too powerful and will disrupt the overall profession of DPS. Yes, I think so, let's look at some features.
SMN has revival, group support, hot and operability with minimal loss, ultra-automatic output.
RDM resurrection, group support, weak GCD treatment.
There are mobility and team support in the telephysical profession.
BLM has strong firepower
He is deeply loved by the people, as it is not difficult to make sure that SMN contains many professional features. Choose to use SMN. Some RDM lovers who know me, including me, are very angry at this. They are doing their best to make more firepower to deliver copies using RDM, but it is not as easy as SMN and has high firepower. Some RDM fans have abandoned this profession and have chosen to use SMN to challenge raid.

[NaiXizi]

Since remote physical DPS is also facing this choice, I think it would be fatal not to retune the SMN. The debuff SMN's firepower can be made bigger, make his firepower like a mechanic, but must be lower than RDM. Or, due to the mobility of DEbuff SMN, it becomes the same as BLM, and the thermal power does not decrease. However, since SMN has more team support (resurrection, HOT, and 5% damage increase) than BLM, SMN must be lower than BLM and have the same firepower as RDM.
As long as you adjust the SMN problem, the problem of professional balance can be solved successfully. Therefore, the SE is required to be a large debuff SMN.
In fact, my version is still 5.11. Some of my RDM friends use RDM to attack The Epic of Alexander.
But some friends have switched to SMN, and they have told me that SMN is much simpler than RDM, and that you can reduce your playing power by half and get high firepower. They think the gaming experience is vastly different.
When chatting with people on my social platform, some other DPS enthusiasts often prefer to laugh at RDM.
They always say: no mole(spy), send RDM jokes. I told them to stop teasing RDM, and I was sick of such jokes.
But did they say there are still people playing RDM? Good RDMs have long been changed to BLM or SMN, and everyone who plays RDMs is a fool (To use very insulting words)
Why do RDM enthusiasts need to give up their favorite profession? Therefore, we will publish this article.
Other DPSs have this feeling as well as RDM. I'm an RDM, so I'm writing about RDM.
If you just look at a comprehensive gaming experience. Then we can say
You can switch SMN such as remote physical DPS. The reason is that the firepower is higher than the remote physical DPS and the mobility is very high.
BLM can also switch SMN. This is because the average firepower is similar to BLM, there is no singing magic, and mobility is high. (Source Data Statistics Website, 5.2)
RDM can also switch SMN. The reason is that the firepower is higher than RDM, there is no singing ability, there is high mobility, there is also a revival, and a comfortable and comfortable output is obtained. Firepower is like RDM's best firepower.
Melee DPS can also switch SMN. The reason is that it can output comfortably over long distances, and the firepower is higher than the proximity dps.
That's one of the reasons SMN came up with a destroy to the overall balance of DPS.
I do not understand English. This is obtained from the translator. Please pardon. But I have to express my thoughts.

[Renkei]

Yeah Summoner is no doubt over powered, they should of kept their damage output the same when they cut down their rotation, or buffed their damage output and kept the old rotation.

[Myon88]

Nah, summoner is just fine. Trying to equate resurrection and verraise by saying 'well, they're both raises', is asinine. You may as well use that logic to say their difference in dps is actually fine, because 'well, they both have damage'. I hope that sounds as silly to you as it does to me. Just as dps lies on a continuum, so does the power of each respective raise. No one arguing in good faith is blind to the difference between a rez dependent on swiftcast, and one backed up by dualcast on demand.

There are really two kinds of people who are chronically upset about summoners:

• Mediocre black mages insecure about getting outdps'ed by a summoner. They think their 60th percentile black mage performance entitles them to beat a 90th percentile summoner (news flash: if they changed job stones, the summoner player would beat you at your own job too.)

• Red mage one tricks who can't come to terms with rdm's role as the most support oriented caster. They've never played the game at a high enough level to appreciate the sheer power of verrraise and vercure, and take it for granted.

That's why we're doing this song and dance with caster balance for the 2nd expansion in a row. The exact same trajectory too, launching as a weak, broken job, buffed in the 2nd tier, and then endless complaints for the rest of the expansion (we are here). If you want to know what lies at the end of this road, look at the ranged now. Currently, if you play any of the casters to its full potential, you can produce miracles that none of the other two can match. The ranged, in contrast, have all been Harrison Bergeron'ed into shallow, hollow shells of themselves to satisfy the people who don't try, and ensure none of them can rise above the other in any meaningful way.

Riddle me this, when summoner was a hot mess in the first tier of eden, I'm sure none of you spared a second thought for whether SE had erred in nerfing them too much. And now in a 45-potency dot world, there are people that consider it their place to wonder if they didn't do enough. I guess SE is only right on the money when it suits you eh? That's a disingenuous and self-serving mindset.

You casters don't appreciate how good we have it now, as someone better than all of you in all three let me tell you why.

We have a 1/1/1 role bonus system that lets you easily run two casters. The last two world firsts were taken by said double caster lineup. Unlike the melees, all three jobs have clearly diverse playstyles. Unlike the ranged, all three are not just viable for general play, but optimal in their respective niches. This time will be looked back on as a golden age for casters, just as Heavensward was for the ranged. We are the gods, and instead of basking in that glory, you're too busy looking over your neighbour's fence to make sure they have less than you.

[Kabooa]

Riddle me this, when summoner was a hot mess in the first tier of eden, I'm sure none of you spared a second thought for whether SE had erred in nerfing them too much. And now in a 45-potency dot world, there are people that consider it their place to wonder if they didn't do enough. I guess SE is only right on the money when it suits you eh? That's a disingenuous and self-serving mindset.

It's really just the raise.

Get rid of it and this would never be a topic.

[SaitoHikari]

-snip-

I would say there's still clearly a problem when the Black Mage and Red Mage population combined barely edges out the Summoner population at high end play today. And I was one of the people that constantly argued how it was stupid that Summoner and Red Mage were that far behind Black Mage during the first tier of Eden, and that the huge 'raise tax' was an oxymoron because if there was a point where a caster actually needed to use raise, the run is probably a wipe anyway. (Though the bigger problem then was the big disparity between the top 5 DPS and the bottom 5 during that era as well, while this obvious gap no longer exists today except towards the very bottom.)

That said, I would think Summoner does too much for all they're capable of, except I noticed the gap between Summoner and Black Mage can actually be explained by the existence of Devotion. In that case, taking away Raise would probably be enough, so then it becomes an exclusive trait of Red Mage.

[Kabooa]

I would say there's still clearly a problem when the Black Mage and Red Mage population combined barely edges out the Summoner population at high end play today. And I was one of the people that constantly argued that Summoner and Red Mage were that far behind Black Mage during the first tier of Eden, and that the huge 'raise tax' was an oxymoron because if there was a point where a caster actually needed to use raise, the run is probably a wipe anyway.

That said, I would think Summoner does too much for all they're capable of, except I noticed the gap between Summoner and Black Mage can actually be explained by the existence of Devotion. In that case, taking away Raise would probably be enough.

I swear to god, if the new caster comes with a raise variant as well I'm going to !@#%ing ree to the hills.

[Renkei]

Snip.

It was a hot mess for a lot of people because it was to difficult for it's reward, They should of buffed the damage and kept the rotation the same, or Lowered the damage when they simplified the rotation, there was no reason for a buff with simplification of their rotation, With that logic sure, we should just give all melee and ranged dps Raise too, while youre at it give tanks Raise too, Because i am neither of the two categories that are chronically upset about summoner, RDM isn't even really support Oriented, for one, they supplement Melee Compositions the most, while summoner has a flat damage bonus that works with all compositions which makes their RDPS Superior in all compositions, in perfect high level play you won't even be casting VER-RAISE, Vercure ya for shaving off some damage, but it fails in comparison to the hDPS of melee.

You say all that stuff while your whole opinion was in your words a "Disingeunous Self-Serving mindset." (Complains at everyone else then says all you casters have it good while you are the one who has it good)
You are lucky and spoiled that you can even SHARE GEAR with any other job, My Job requires me to INDEPENDENTLY GEAR.
As for Ranged jobs they should of never took away their skill ceiling, Casters and Ranged Performed very very good in Heavens Ward.

Bro you need to walk outside of your house and look at what you have clearly, maybe your neighbors house is on fire that's why hes looking over your fence the devil is in the details.

[Myon88]

I would say there's still clearly a problem when the Black Mage and Red Mage population combined barely edges out the Summoner population at high end play today.

You could not have picked a more irrelevant metric. So we're balancing based on popularity now? If you look at the page on a certain site you pulled that information from, you'll see that other jobs like samurai, dragoon, and whm are similar outliers that far outstrip their peers. Guess you're just outta luck huh, if your job is padded with people looking for their 'pure healer fantasy', or people looking to play iconic final fantasy jobs. Here, these are total number of parses per job in Eden2 so far:

Summoner 24,815
Black Mage 13,194
Red Mage 13,834

Samurai 21,945
Ninja 16,560
Monk 11,998
Dragoon 25,837

Machinist 17,712
Bard 14,272
Dancer 16,393

Astrologian 16,236
White Mage 39,613
Scholar 32,653

All sorts of factors affect what job people choose to play. You have reasons like monk not being 'flashy' enough for most melee players, or astrologian being less straightforward than the other two healers. By your logic, we're going to need to buff monk even more too, as if they weren't monsters already.

[SaitoHikari]

You could not have picked a more irrelevant metric. So we're balancing based on popularity now? If you look at the page on a certain site you pulled that information from, you'll see that other jobs like samurai, dragoon, and whm are similar outliers that far outstrip their peers. Guess you're just outta luck huh, if your job is padded with people looking for their 'pure healer fantasy', or people looking to play iconic final fantasy jobs. Here, these are total number of parses per job in Eden2 so far:


Summoner 24,815
Black Mage13,194
Red Mage 13,834

Samurai 21,945
Ninja 16,560
Monk 11,998
Dragoon 25,837

Machinist 17,712
Bard 14,272
Dancer 16,393

It's nice that you chose one sentence to argue over while ignoring 80% of the post. And the other guy replying to you at the same time.

Population is usually a metric of where a class stands design-wise and balance-wise. People are bad at explaining exactly what's wrong, just that we know something IS off about the balance and react accordingly. The Bard population was extremely high back in Stormblood for one, while Machinist was low. But now it's the other way around, though the gap between both isn't as big as it was back in Stormblood IIRC (which could also be somewhat explained by some Bards switching to Dancer).

The point being is that Summoner is so dominant within their role now that their population makes up nearly half of the total casters (24,815 recorded logs VS 27,028). The other roles don't have this large of a population disparity within their roles at all, unless you're cherry picking the melee by emphasizing Monk - which has more to do with how that class has a high skill ceiling as well, not to mention that Monks on these forums swear up and down that their class has had fundamental gameplay design problems for a while. In that case, the perceived gameplay of Monk is enough to keep their population low even though they're relatively well off damage-wise - in the same way Machinist population at the end of Heavensward was still very low even though they were buffed into the stratosphere in that era.

Still though, one class making up some 47% of the total population of a role tends to indicate something is up, especially when compared to the relatively even distribution of classes in the ranged role in comparison. Summoner should really just have Raise taken from them then, which would strengthen Red Mage's position as the 'hybrid' caster, rather than their objectively weird identity-less limbo they're in now.