I love beautiful animations.. but I think they're too slow for this game

[Riaayo]

Who says its a problem >_>

Lag is a problem. Latency is a problem. Animation lock is not a problem, but a stylistic choice. I dont think you should be able to interrupt animations at will, cuz that means you can use skills without any sort of thought or strategy. Button spamming takes no skill, and there should be a penalty for using a skill at the wrong time. Every skill should have a delay in which you can't move, and most action/fighting games (Street Fighter, Tekken, etc etc) have animation locks built into gameplay. No one complains about them there; in fact being pro on Street Fighter is built around this whole "dont use a skill at the wrong time or you'll get ani locked and comboed". So please stop with the "Its a problem" business. No its not.

The problem is that ppl have been conditioned to "faceroll" gameplay (exactly what non ani-locked games are). I know you want to just spam your numbers and run up the parser, but I prefer strategy and forethought in my games..thanks.

You seem to not understand the intended difficulty of continuing to use the correct abilities in the right rotation or in response to certain conditions while also moving your character out of dangerous mechanics in a fight. I don't like to assume you've never touched a game other than XI or XIV since I'm sure you have and would enjoy throwing the fact in my face, but the way you word it makes you sound like you have not.

What takes more skill, Lux? Someone sitting around executing a couple of slow-firing abilities every few seconds (with probably 1-2 seconds between them), or someone who has to string together a large amount of abilities (with maybe .5 seconds between each) in the correct order while under pressure from outside stimulation. If you think it's the first, you simply have no clue and are brainwashed by years of telling yourself games like XI were fun and you weren't wasting your time on stupid, bad design.



I tried to understand the desire of a "slow mmo" by comparing it to something like chess, as that is a turn based thinking game. Then I remembered that many high end chess players will play with a clock and try to make quicker moves, and I was back to not understanding the point of this.

Truthfully, I am beginning to believe that turn-based, slow paced games are the "cartoon kid games" you guys like to insult WoW as. They are a game that allows you all the time in the world to try and figure out your next move at whatever slow pace you need to go, while the players who want to push themselves are playing the fast-paced games where they have to make split-second decisions. I don't even consider myself someone who likes to make a split-second choice and I still prefer a fast paced game to something slow and boring.

[Lux_Rayna]

You seem to not understand the intended difficulty of continuing to use the correct abilities in the right rotation or in response to certain conditions while also moving your character out of dangerous mechanics in a fight. I don't like to assume you've never touched a game other than XI or XIV since I'm sure you have and would enjoy throwing the fact in my face, but the way you word it makes you sound like you have not.

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.

What takes more skill, Lux? Someone sitting around executing a couple of slow-firing abilities every few seconds (with probably 1-2 seconds between them), or someone who has to string together a large amount of abilities (with maybe .5 seconds between each) in the correct order while under pressure from outside stimulation. If you think it's the first, you simply have no clue and are brainwashed by years of telling yourself games like XI were fun and you weren't wasting your time on stupid, bad design.

Solo? Party? Raid? There is no blanket statement here. Being a raid dps takes no skill at all under a "WoW" sort of system (not that it orginated there but whatever). You know what you do? Spam your skills in a practiced predetermined rotation while a cpl raid healers keep your hp up. Skill? Laughable. If danger comes guess what? You can run away! The only skills required in this situation are finger dexterity and knowing when to run away. Even tho, most ppl dont even bother running in those situations...thats the normal culture.

If you're a mage its the same thing, spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. Tank? Spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. The only two classes that really face difficulties in that situation are healers and tanks, due to the sheer amount of finger dexterity required to keep up with everything. Other than that its a joke. Unless you're a healer, or *maybe* a tank, all you need to do is press buttons as fast as you can to run up parser. Pvp? Same thing. I press my buttons faster than you I win, unless your gear is way more OP than mine. Because things move so fast there's very little time for strategy, since it is over within a few seconds anyway. Generally speaking, gear being equal, first hit wins almost every time, not counting class advantages.

I tried to understand the desire of a "slow mmo" by comparing it to something like chess, as that is a turn based thinking game. Then I remembered that many high end chess players will play with a clock and try to make quicker moves, and I was back to not understanding the point of this.

A clock just gives a time limit. FFXIV has the same time limit...for instance you have a combo clock which gives you only few seconds to decide whether you will risk an animation lock or whether you'll play it safe and wait.

Truthfully, I am beginning to believe that turn-based, slow paced games are the "cartoon kid games" you guys like to insult WoW as. They are a game that allows you all the time in the world to try and figure out your next move at whatever slow pace you need to go.

Thats just it, fast-paced games dont necessarily require you to think. I've played WoW; unless you're a healer or *maybe* a tank you dont need to think at all. If you do you're a newb, because you've been doing the same skill rotation for god knows how long. WoW is a gear game, not a thinking game. If your gear is superior you will pwn. That is just the fact of it. The only real thinkers are healers, but healers are thinkers in every game. If you want to play a trigger-happy game that is about skill, go play an FPS. MMORPGs can't mimick that sort of difficulty because the way an MMO is designed to work. At most itll give you a button mashing format to keep your mind feeling "alive," but in no way are you really "thinking". Its "twitch combat", which is a function of reflex more than a function of thought and strategy.

The difficulty in games like WoW is a physical one..the ability to react accurately and efficiently. The difficulty in games like FFXIV is mental, the ability to predict and take strategized actions within a certain time limit. One style isn't more difficult than another, I just find WoW to be a poor example of actually difficult twitch combat...mostly due to the way that gear trumps everything in that game. An FPS is truly twitch combat.

[Riaayo]

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.



Solo? Party? Raid? There is no blanket statement here. Being a raid dps takes no skill at all under a "WoW" sort of system (not that it orginated there but whatever). You know what you do? Spam your skills in a practiced predetermined rotation while a cpl raid healers keep your hp up. Skill? Laughable. If danger comes guess what? You can run away! The only skills required in this situation are finger dexterity and knowing when to run away. Even tho, most ppl dont even bother running in those situations...thats the normal culture.

If you're a mage its the same thing, spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. Tank? Spam spam spam in a predetermined rotation. The only two classes that really face difficulties in that situation are healers and tanks, due to the sheer amount of finger dexterity required to keep up with everything. Other than that its a joke. Unless you're a healer, or *maybe* a tank, all you need to do is press buttons as fast as you can to run up parser. Pvp? Same thing. I press my buttons faster than you I win, unless your gear is way more OP than mine. Because things move so fast there's very little time for strategy, since it is over within a few seconds anyway. Generally speaking, gear being equal, first hit wins almost every time, not counting class advantages.




A clock just gives a time limit. FFXIV has the same time limit...for instance you have a combo clock which gives you only few seconds to decide whether you will risk an animation lock or whether you'll play it safe and wait.



Thats just it, fast-paced games dont necessarily require you to think. I've played WoW; unless you're a healer or *maybe* a tank you dont need to think at all. If you do you're a newb, because you've been doing the same skill rotation for god knows how long. WoW is a gear game, not a thinking game. If your gear is superior you will pwn. That is just the fact of it. The only real thinkers are healers, but healers are thinkers in every game. If you want to play a trigger-happy game that is about skill, go play an FPS. MMORPGs can't mimick that sort of difficulty because the way an MMO is designed to work. At most itll give you a button mashing format to keep your mind feeling "alive," but in no way are you really "thinking". Its "twitch combat", which is a function of reflex more than a function of thought and strategy.

The difficulty in games like WoW is a physical one..the ability to react accurately and efficiently. The difficulty in games like FFXIV is mental, the ability to predict and take strategized actions within a certain time limit. One style isn't more difficult than another, I just find WoW to be a poor example of actually difficult twitch combat...mostly due to the way that gear trumps everything in that game. An FPS is truly twitch combat.

So you're saying that a culture in which DDs have to move out of mechanics requires less skill than a culture where DDs don't move at all, eat damage, and have the healer hold their hand even further? The second is XI and XIV, if you did not know.

Everything you say in here can be turned around on XI and XIV, with even more criticism. How was DDing in XI not just as per-determined of a "rotation" other than the fact it as 100x slower than WoW? There's no difference. Auto attack for TP > WS > Repeat. Highest tier Thunder > Highest tier Blizzard > wtfever Blms did. How's that take skill...? That's laughable. And the best part is you just tank and spanked, there was NO mechanics to make you survive in bosses on 11 (as a healer I love the idea that DDs can be smart and avoid damage so I can focus on a tank, or that they out-right die if they don't move and it's totally their own fault). You just zerged like an idiot and got healed through it. XI did not take skill but everyone who played it seems to be under the delusion that it did so that they can think they were a great gamer.

XI "raiders" don't know anything about actual mmo mechanics. FFXI fights were little more than "Don't attack the mob," "Attack the mob," and "Zerg the mob." That's the modes that existed in encounters in that game. The only things I can recall in XI that people moved out of to avoid were Stonega from Kirin and Citadel Buster off Proto-Ultima... what the hell else did people move out of? NOTHING. We ate astral flows with our bibs already nestled in our shirt collar and we dined on self-destructs. We just took dmg to the face without a care in the world because a healer would put a band aid on our stupid DD ass and we'd keep on going. No, this was not skill. Nor was the millions of gil spent on your Kraken Clubs, if you want to talk about gear playing your class for you.

There is not a single piece of gear in WoW that made you a better player, helped you dodge boss mechanics, or made you win raids. The player's ability did all of that. You say other mmos couldn't hold your interest for more than a couple of weeks? Then I doubt you even hit max level, let alone raided in WoW, and if you didn't do those and do them for an extended period of time you have no idea what you are even talking about.

Furthermore, you have to predict abilities in WoW even more than you did in XI or XIV because they actually require you to move unlike the previously mentioned XI mechanics. XIV is trying to be more like WoW but sadly still suffers from the ability to find an infinitely safe spot to huddle in and then dps rotation without ANY care in the world (or skill).


If we want to talk about an FPS being "truly twitch" then lets compare. What's the better FPS: the one where you have to run between cover and return fire while trying not to get hit, or the one where you stand in the middle of a field, not moving, continually shooting and reloading while your buddy med-packs you back to full life to take the incoming damage? I'll let you figure out the right answer.




All of this said, this has boiled down to hijacking a thread about animation locking and turning it into a Final Fantasy VS The World discussion; which may not be completely unwarranted but it's not exactly the original purpose, either. The world is a big place, though... might care to take more than a couple of weeks to sample the other things it has to offer.

[Adam]

I have, but if you couldnt tell this is the only system ive actually enjoyed. Too many MMOs to name and the only one that held my attention for more than a couple weeks is FFXI/FFXIV.

This is a giant wall of text that only makes you seem like you know what you're talking about. First off you haven't put enough time in any other MMO that much is apparent. Most MMOs do not truly begin until you hit the level cap. It's the same thing in FF. Nobody cares about small NMs or AF quests as far as accomplishments go. It's all about what have you beaten, this HNM or this dungeon. Same thing in WoW you haven't raided in wow or PvP'd because the way you described it is completely wrong.

Now you say it's just finger dexterity and knowing your rotation. Isn't it the same in FFXIV? I constantly spam my next action in dungeons when tanking or dpsing. Healers heal you while you dps and tank? come on what does FFXIV do so differently? Hmmm okay you might have me on the "knowing when to run away" part, it's nothing like the Ifrit, Moogle, Ogre, Misser, Chimera battles in FFXIV... Tanks spam provoke and flash and use combos to hold aggro.

>>NEWS FLASH<<
This just in! Tanks in all mmos use provocative abilities and use their abilities to hold aggro
>>END NEWS FLASH<<<

Let me inform you as an old time arena junkie. Knowing your rotation helps but is not your number one priority, PvP is about knowing your opponent and having their specific counter ability ready to go.

Gear is not what makes you good or bad at wow, this statement clearly shows me you've never actually played wow. Gear is there because THE PEOPLE PLAYING the game want new fresh things, old gear is handed out(so everybody has gear to raid or pvp with) while the truly great gear is hard earned rewards that aren't "needed" to win. Twitch combat? I've never heard of that. I think what you ment to say was "people who think faster then me." There is no such thing it requires much faster "thinking." Sounds like some made up thing to justify your own bad.

FFXIV however no matter how ready you are for ability X you're still in risk of getting hit! Try tanking coincounter. I tested it a few times where I sat there did NO actions, and waited for 100 tonz swing. Guess what!? It hit me half the time. I pressed down on my joystick (I play on a controller) as soon as I saw the ability, my filters are set up to only show me enemy abilities and it still wasn't fast enough. It's an extremely unforgiving ability with to short of a cast time then on top of that, you get caught in animation lock!? My party keeps nuking and building aggro I have to keep building aggro. I do not want to stand there and run away while doing no action an entire fight (it's not very fun). Yes they have to keep nuking we do speed runs, we do not take the entire 60 mins. Now I just stand there and foresight, featherfoot, sentinal it off. Coincounter was meant to fall down that's why he falls when he misses 100 tonz, and I can't play the game's mechanic properly because of animation locks.

[Lux_Rayna]

This is a giant wall of text that only makes you seem like you know what you're talking about. First off you haven't put enough time in any other MMO that much is apparent. Most MMOs do not truly begin until you hit the level cap. It's the same thing in FF. Nobody cares about small NMs or AF quests as far as accomplishments go. It's all about what have you beaten, this HNM or this dungeon. Same thing in WoW you haven't raided in wow or PvP'd because the way you described it is completely wrong.

Hardly. If you're a DPS you can faceroll a raid. That is a fact. The only ppl that feel pressure are the tank and the healer.

Now you say it's just finger dexterity and knowing your rotation. Isn't it the same in FFXIV?

No its not because of animation lock. You seem to forget my post was about animation lock vs no animation lock. Animation lock means that even tho you do have a rotation, you have to constantly think about when to use/stop your rotation for of being locked and countered. This mechanic exists in all competitive action games, most notably fighting games. This also means you are constantly forced to adapt your rotation as the situation changes. Your rotation for Ifrit >50% is gonna look a lot different for Ifrit <50%. This does not happen in WoW or games based on the WoW system. Why? Because you can always run away in the middle of any action you are doing; therefore, you never have to *think* about your rotation.

As far as PvP goes I would not consider WoW PvP exemplary of twitch skill combat...because gear really does own all. You are not beating anyone with gear *far* superior to yours. Period...unless you get the jump on them and they are unable to fire back. Also WoW had horrible class balance for a while as far as pvp went. I do know what im talking about.

So you're saying that a culture in which DDs have to move out of mechanics requires less skill than a culture where DDs don't move at all, eat damage, and have the healer hold their hand even further? The second is XI and XIV, if you did not know.

Are you kidding? Try not moving on Ifrit and see how that works for your DDs. Have fun eating cracks/lava plumes/charges. In both games DDs have to move, thats not the point. The point is that in one game (WoW games) moving is a lot easier than in FFXI/XIV because of the whole animation lock thing. Animation lock forces you to think before you do *anything*. You do not have to do the same thinking in other games due to the fact that you can move freely at will. I will be the first to admit it is very hard to move and spam buttons at the same time. Very hard. But as I said at the bottom of my post, which BOTH of you failed to read or comprehend, is that both game types require skill, but different kinds of skill.

WoW = physical.
XI/XIV = mental

One is not automatically superior over another. I have no idea why you turned this into a WoW vs XIV debate in the first place. My point is that animation lock is a real game mechanic that exists in many games that require a high degree of skill (Street Fighter is the most notorious). Everyone saying its a problem, or a bug, or a mistake is flat out incorrect. It is an intentional game design based on how SE wants players to utilize their skills. Obviously they decided against WoW twitch combat, and focused on mental pre-planning/adaptation. WoW built its game on reflex and fast fingers, SE built their game on intelligence and forethought. Two different skill types, but skill nonethless.

The problem with WoW is that it is all overshadowed by elite gear. No matter what gear you get in XIV, you will still get pwned if you dont use your brain.

[Adam]

Hardly. If you're a DPS you can faceroll a raid. That is a fact. The only ppl that feel pressure are the tank and the healer.

You have 1 battleclass at level 50 (and it's lancer), and have not finished the "current content" of FFXIV (Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale). Also have 8 times as many forum posts as I do. I think you should play the game a bit before you argue what good and bad aspects of the game is. This game is not that much fun there is nothing more or less physical except that you either play on keyboard or controller. Mentally? You must process everything much faster on WoW in my opinion. If you disagree fine, keep telling yourself you're having fun playing FFXIV. Meanwhile i'll continue to give it an unbiased look with my personal experience on BOTH MMOs.

[Riaayo]

Hardly. If you're a DPS you can faceroll a raid. That is a fact. The only ppl that feel pressure are the tank and the healer.



No its not because of animation lock. You seem to forget my post was about animation lock vs no animation lock. Animation lock means that even tho you do have a rotation, you have to constantly think about when to use/stop your rotation for of being locked and countered. This mechanic exists in all competitive action games, most notably fighting games. This also means you are constantly forced to adapt your rotation as the situation changes. Your rotation for Ifrit >50% is gonna look a lot different for Ifrit <50%. This does not happen in WoW or games based on the WoW system. Why? Because you can always run away in the middle of any action you are doing; therefore, you never have to *think* about your rotation.

As far as PvP goes I would not consider WoW PvP exemplary of twitch skill combat...because gear really does own all. You are not beating anyone with gear *far* superior to yours. Period...unless you get the jump on them and they are unable to fire back. Also WoW had horrible class balance for a while as far as pvp went. I do know what im talking about.



Are you kidding? Try not moving on Ifrit and see how that works for your DDs. Have fun eating cracks/lava plumes/charges. In both games DDs have to move, thats not the point. The point is that in one game (WoW games) moving is a lot easier than in FFXI/XIV because of the whole animation lock thing. Animation lock forces you to think before you do *anything*. You do not have to do the same thinking in other games due to the fact that you can move freely at will. I will be the first to admit it is very hard to move and spam buttons at the same time. Very hard. But as I said at the bottom of my post, which BOTH of you failed to read or comprehend, is that both game types require skill, but different kinds of skill.

WoW = physical.
XI/XIV = mental

One is not automatically superior over another. I have no idea why you turned this into a WoW vs XIV debate in the first place. My point is that animation lock is a real game mechanic that exists in many games that require a high degree of skill (Street Fighter is the most notorious). Everyone saying its a problem, or a bug, or a mistake is flat out incorrect. It is an intentional game design based on how SE wants players to utilize their skills. Obviously they decided against WoW twitch combat, and focused on mental pre-planning/adaptation. WoW built its game on reflex and fast fingers, SE built their game on intelligence and forethought. Two different skill types, but skill nonethless.

The problem with WoW is that it is all overshadowed by elite gear. No matter what gear you get in XIV, you will still get pwned if you dont use your brain.

I'm sorry but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, so I am done. You have not experienced more than 2 weeks of WoW by your own account, and you do not possess more than 1 lvl 50 class in this game, nor have you beaten any meaningful high-end or current content the game has to offer. So, you really have nothing to base your opinions on other than tiny, incomplete fractions of things you have seen. You may wish to broaden your horizons and be more objective about things in the future, because people generally don't listen to the opinions of those who are not all that educated on the subject they are discussing.