Physical range dps damage?

[AnonymousBard]

Because (at least for BRD, dont know about DNC) He has one of, if not the best AOE rotations and sustained damage plus utility. In RPG's in general you will find that most dps builds revolve around two archetypes (with obvious exceptions): Burst damage dps (which in FFXIV is Melee/Casters) and sustained dps (ranged dps). Sustained damage dps is normally weaker per attack and overall than burst dps but in trade, you get a steady amount of damage being applied to the boss to beat any enrage timers, normally better AOEs, and a little extra utility to boost the usefulness.

EDIT: My response was not to the post above me, but I'll throw my 2 cents into that hat as well.

SMN is just OP right now. There's always something better than other things in RPGs. Just the way of the world. And in that world, its the SMN right now.

[DevilsDontFly]

snip

That logic doesn't make that much sense, though, because by definition BLM would be a sustained dps. Yes, he hits like a truck, but in a sustained way. You do your rotation, you reach peak after your opener is set and then you plateau there till the end of the fight, while DNC would be opposite, since you have huge burst windows every 2 minutes.

While AoE rotation for ranged DPS is good, that shouldn't be a reason for their single target to be low in a game in which most endgame content (as in raids, trials and 24raids) are focused around killing or damaging one enemy at a time.
The reason why ranged DPS have lower damage output in general is because a ranged DPS is the only role that can consistently damage the enemy through mechanics for the entirety of the fight. Moving away from people because of tethers, constant don't-stop-walking mechanics and pushbacks are not an issue for ranged DPS, so it's much easier to optimize compared to melee that have positionals and some upkeep strategies to maintain, and casters that have cast bars, a mana pool, not as much mobility and prone to die easier if mechanics are not performed perfectly due to lower caster HP gear.

[Crushnight]

Because (at least for BRD, dont know about DNC) He has one of, if not the best AOE rotations and sustained damage plus utility. In RPG's in general you will find that most dps builds revolve around two archetypes (with obvious exceptions): Burst damage dps (which in FFXIV is Melee/Casters) and sustained dps (ranged dps). Sustained damage dps is normally weaker per attack and overall than burst dps but in trade, you get a steady amount of damage being applied to the boss to beat any enrage timers, normally better AOEs, and a little extra utility to boost the usefulness.

EDIT: My response was not to the post above me, but I'll throw my 2 cents into that hat as well.

SMN is just OP right now. There's always something better than other things in RPGs. Just the way of the world. And in that world, its the SMN right now.

DNC would be classed as burst, as you save up 3 fan procs for burst windows, and with everything that is not 1,2 single or aoe combo being 50% chance, and espirit being random depending on job, it can vary widely on dps, the best dnc in the world could have a difference of 1k dps between their best and worst despite doing nothing wrong due to insanely bad and good luck. No other job has that level of variance when doing the exact same rotation in any fight yet Dnc is also inherently lower due to being physical ranged.

[LalaRu]

Expect incoming SMN nerfhammer.

[Connor]

Expect incoming SMN nerfhammer.

Surely they could just adjust ranged if/as necessary? I wouldn’t think that Summoner is significantly overpowered, more that it just has a more full and interesting toolkit whilst still having the same / almost the same mobility as ranged. Not that it isn’t very useful for lots of reasons, of course

And I can’t speak for anyone else, but I always figured that optimising support ability usage was the ‘positionals’ of ranged. Melee have to deal with disengaging the enemy to avoid aoes, healers have healing to consider, tanks have defense to consider, casters have cast times and MP usage to consider, then ranged has their support abilities to consider.

Like, Bard with cast times and MP usage, Machinists and Promotion / debuff timing, even Dancer with having to use GCDs on Steps and stuff like Technical Step / Improv usage. I think stuff like that really gives ranged something to have to consider, meaning that they can’t just run around spamming damage buttons and work less hard than every other job, which I’m sure nobody wants or is advocating. And I mean, I’m sure there are more ways to support the party than the OP Refresh/Tactician abilities.

I don’t think ranged needs more dps personally, think I’ve always argued that I think ranged was meant to be about something different than just ‘hit them hard’ (to the extent that a support oriented dps role can be different). Since every other role in the game also has to ‘hit them hard’, so naturally it doesn’t make sense for ranged to only have dps to consider when there’s nothing else for them to deal with.

I mean, I guess ranged could remain as the ‘easy mode mechanics’ job, but then as others have said I have to wonder how much of an advantage ranged mobility actually affords, since it’s not like casters can’t bypass movement requirements with instant casts, or melee have absolutely no ranged attacks or gap-closers to mitigate disengagement downtime. Not that I’m saying they don’t need to consider cast times / downtime because of these abilities, just that they aren’t exactly rooted to the spot for whole fights at a time.

I mean, the devs removed stuff like old Bard songs and Machinist’s promotion because ultimately they wanted ranged be more focused on ‘just damage’. But as everyone else has pointed out, there’s a good reason why ranged shouldn’t really be about pure damage, because they either can’t compete with melee/casters, or become so op that they outdo them completely.

Lastly this is naturally just my own opinion on the subject and I’m not suggesting that my view is the only one that should be allowed to exist. If they decide to keep ranged as pure dps then I’m not going to like, quit the game or be upset, I’d rather just play something more support oriented like Summoner/Red Mage/Astrologian. I just personally preferred the 2.0/3.0 focus on support for ranged

[Vaer]

I mean, I guess ranged could remain as the ‘easy mode mechanics’ job, but then as others have said I have to wonder how much of an advantage ranged mobility actually affords, since it’s not like casters can’t bypass movement requirements with instant casts, or melee have absolutely no ranged attacks or gap-closers to mitigate disengagement downtime. Not that I’m saying they don’t need to consider cast times / downtime because of these abilities, just that they aren’t exactly rooted to the spot for whole fights at a time

Personally I think passive mobility and high uptime is a significant advantage when the game revolves on keeping the GCD going and the amount of positioning mechanics the game throws at you. Mechanic design varies and sometimes it punishes casters more than melee and vice versa, but ranged don't have to worry about that most of the time. Ranged can even stand in for melee positioning spots with minimal damage loss.

Disengaging on melee and cast interruptions on caster are decent potency drops. Dropping a cast at the wrong time on BLM is painful.

In a perfect world, all dps subtypes are using their support skills though. Addle, Feint, Second Wind, Bloodbath, Tactician line, Mantra/Minne/Waltz all support the healers.

It seems like they usually balance the subroles against each other first (the dev's version of the ideal dps comp is 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster - enforced by the party stat bonus in an 8 person party). This is why RDM was buffed, it was seriously lagging behind BLM and SMN.

They then balance them all to make them all viable for the floater 4th spot. This spot has usually gone to melee recently but this tier there are a lot more 2 caster comps primarily due to SMN and the RDM buffs.

I think at most the utility penalty should be around 4-6% from the top depending on the type of utility, so ranged could probably use a slight buff.

Mostly I think they're probably a bit more conservative for the ranged subrole in general because it went through a bunch of expansions where stacking ranged was common due to the synergy with Dragoon and casters were the first to be replaced in those situations leaving the party comp as 2 melee and 2 ranged.

[Dfess]

That logic doesn't make that much sense, though, because by definition BLM would be a sustained dps. Yes, he hits like a truck, but in a sustained way. You do your rotation, you reach peak after your opener is set and then you plateau there till the end of the fight, while DNC would be opposite, since you have huge burst windows every 2 minutes.

While AoE rotation for ranged DPS is good, that shouldn't be a reason for their single target to be low in a game in which most endgame content (as in raids, trials and 24raids) are focused around killing or damaging one enemy at a time.
The reason why ranged DPS have lower damage output in general is because a ranged DPS is the only role that can consistently damage the enemy through mechanics for the entirety of the fight. Moving away from people because of tethers, constant don't-stop-walking mechanics and pushbacks are not an issue for ranged DPS, so it's much easier to optimize compared to melee that have positionals and some upkeep strategies to maintain, and casters that have cast bars, a mana pool, not as much mobility and prone to die easier if mechanics are not performed perfectly due to lower caster HP gear.

That's because BLM is sustained damage. Burst refers to brief windows where you dump everything on a target and your damage the decreases over time. You do high numbers at a particular point in an encounter but you cant keep it going. Sustained dps is what you described when talking about BLM. Having a consistent rotation that builds up and plateaus at a point in the encounter.

[dinnertime]

SMN is fine where it is now that the magical ranged role is balanced with BLM being mostly on top. No need to nerf one job because the entire physical ranged role is underperforming.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Mobility is the king of everything in any game ever to exist in the history of gaming. Nothing is more valuable than getting somewhere quicker or moving away from an impending attack quicker.

The moment Bard, MCH or DNC are buffed to do damage > any job that has cast times, or is melee, is the moment all those other jobs may as well not exist. Why take a Dragoon, Ninja or Monk if a Bard can do as much damage as they can without ever having the fear of downtime, being stuck in an animation (jumps/assassinate/Tin Chi Jen) or needing to worry about Greased Lightning stacks . Why take a Summoner or RDM if a MCH can do as much damage as they can without ever having to deal with cast times or a melee combo. (And don't bring up "but raid progression" that only last a week if not a few days. And it requires someone's death for resurrection spells to ever be useful, not much of a utility if its requirements are failure. They're dead weight spells/"utility" if no one dies)

The only way you ranged DPS players can feasibly attain higher DPS is having 3.0's cast times back, and you wouldn't want that now would you?

Side note: Since people like to attack Summoner for some reason, it's nowhere near as mobile as the ranged DPS, which can move freely with no penalty toward their DPS. "Oh but Ruin 2! Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance!" you might say. Ruin 2 is 40 potency lower than Ruin 3, that's actually pretty enormous believe it or not. They have to sacrifice potency for mobility, who'd have thought? And the trances are on a 55s cooldown with a 15s and 20s duration, hardly free or infinite mobility unlike ranged DPS. And as someone earlier had said, it's hard to play so it's allowed to do high DPS unlike something like RDM (which is roll your face across the keyboard easy but, still has cast times and a, must be in melee range, melee combo)

[dinnertime]

Side note: Since people like to attack Summoner for some reason, it's nowhere near as mobile as the ranged DPS, which can move freely with no penalty toward their DPS. "Oh but Ruin 2! Dreadwyrm/Firebird Trance!" you might say. Ruin 2 is 40 potency lower than Ruin 3, that's actually pretty enormous believe it or not. They have to sacrifice potency for mobility, who'd have thought? And the trances are on a 55s cooldown with a 15s and 20s duration, hardly free or infinite mobility unlike ranged DPS. And as someone earlier had said, it's hard to play so it's allowed to do high DPS unlike something like RDM (which is roll your face across the keyboard easy but, still has cast times and a, must be in melee range, melee combo)

You're forgetting Egi Assault, which gives Summoner a tremendous amount of mobility, not to mention that it gives you Ruin IV, granted it should be saved for Demi-Bahamut, but for phases outside of that, it's free for you to use if you need to move around. Demi summons *can* be used for mobility but it's not recommended.

Also the dev team does not factor difficulty in performing the job to how much damage it makes, otherwise we'd see an entirely different list of who's on top and who's at last.