Physical range dps damage?

[ReiMakoto]

phys ranged has low dps because

a) lack of positionals
b) 100% uptime (unless you're out of range)
c) can both DPS and do mechanics (leads back into b)
d) utility
e) can move while attacking

SMN has all of the above and is one of the highest dps in the game. even assuming that you cancel dwt immediatly every time you have 20 seconds of free mobility every min from egi assault and ruin 4. Then you have the 20 odd seconds of firebird trance on top of that every other min. Then you could also not choose to cancel dwt immediatly and thats only an rdps loss when devotion is up so thats even more mobility. Then on top of all of that if you run out of absolutely everything, you still have ruin 2 which is a drop in the bucket in terms of a dps loss. SMN also has addle which is stupidly useful as pretty much all raidwides are magic damage which is only slightly worse than tactician on fights where the boss goes invuln, and better than tactician on bosses where the boss is targetable all the time because addle gets more uses out of a fight.

So comparing SMN to MCH:
1. Both mobile with very high uptime (Potentially no damage loss due to movement)
2. Both have raidwide mitigation
3. SMN has the ability to trade dps for extra survivability with titan
4. SMN also has a raidbuff which even without it they do more than mch so its just extra damage
5. SMN does more damage overall
6. SMN has a raise
7. SMN has an aoe regen (mostly fluff but still there)

[Connor]

snip

See this is what’s confusing me about the whole ‘ranged dps value’ thing.

All ranged must have the very bottom tier dps of all damage dealers to compensate for their utility and mobility, which is totally fair (besides the fact the utility is barely a draw itself lol).

But then, there’s Summoner.

It has way high dps, it can raise, it has nigh-infinite mobility like any ranged, it has a damage buff, it has an attack debuff, a self-buff for defense (not that you’d want to really have Titan out lol), hell it even has party-wide regen.

Why does ranged have to be the worst dps with the worst utility, when Summoners to have it all and more.

Idk I don’t get why Summoner is allowed to be what’s essentially a support job, except with great dps and high utility, but then the actual role that’s supposed to be ‘support’ can’t have any of those things?

I’m not saying Summoner should be nerfed or anything because that wouldn’t be fair on them, but why can’t ranged have equivalent levels of utility? Would Bard really become a very top dps of them all if it had a regen? If Dancers had raise? Machinists using debuffs?

Idk I guess what I’m saying is, why are these things ‘super-OP’ on ranged, but they’re totally fine when they’re on a caster?

[AnonymousBard]

Because (at least for BRD, dont know about DNC) He has one of, if not the best AOE rotations and sustained damage plus utility. In RPG's in general you will find that most dps builds revolve around two archetypes (with obvious exceptions): Burst damage dps (which in FFXIV is Melee/Casters) and sustained dps (ranged dps). Sustained damage dps is normally weaker per attack and overall than burst dps but in trade, you get a steady amount of damage being applied to the boss to beat any enrage timers, normally better AOEs, and a little extra utility to boost the usefulness.

EDIT: My response was not to the post above me, but I'll throw my 2 cents into that hat as well.

SMN is just OP right now. There's always something better than other things in RPGs. Just the way of the world. And in that world, its the SMN right now.

[Crushnight]

Because (at least for BRD, dont know about DNC) He has one of, if not the best AOE rotations and sustained damage plus utility. In RPG's in general you will find that most dps builds revolve around two archetypes (with obvious exceptions): Burst damage dps (which in FFXIV is Melee/Casters) and sustained dps (ranged dps). Sustained damage dps is normally weaker per attack and overall than burst dps but in trade, you get a steady amount of damage being applied to the boss to beat any enrage timers, normally better AOEs, and a little extra utility to boost the usefulness.

EDIT: My response was not to the post above me, but I'll throw my 2 cents into that hat as well.

SMN is just OP right now. There's always something better than other things in RPGs. Just the way of the world. And in that world, its the SMN right now.

DNC would be classed as burst, as you save up 3 fan procs for burst windows, and with everything that is not 1,2 single or aoe combo being 50% chance, and espirit being random depending on job, it can vary widely on dps, the best dnc in the world could have a difference of 1k dps between their best and worst despite doing nothing wrong due to insanely bad and good luck. No other job has that level of variance when doing the exact same rotation in any fight yet Dnc is also inherently lower due to being physical ranged.

[DevilsDontFly]

snip

That logic doesn't make that much sense, though, because by definition BLM would be a sustained dps. Yes, he hits like a truck, but in a sustained way. You do your rotation, you reach peak after your opener is set and then you plateau there till the end of the fight, while DNC would be opposite, since you have huge burst windows every 2 minutes.

While AoE rotation for ranged DPS is good, that shouldn't be a reason for their single target to be low in a game in which most endgame content (as in raids, trials and 24raids) are focused around killing or damaging one enemy at a time.
The reason why ranged DPS have lower damage output in general is because a ranged DPS is the only role that can consistently damage the enemy through mechanics for the entirety of the fight. Moving away from people because of tethers, constant don't-stop-walking mechanics and pushbacks are not an issue for ranged DPS, so it's much easier to optimize compared to melee that have positionals and some upkeep strategies to maintain, and casters that have cast bars, a mana pool, not as much mobility and prone to die easier if mechanics are not performed perfectly due to lower caster HP gear.

[LalaRu]

Expect incoming SMN nerfhammer.

[Connor]

Expect incoming SMN nerfhammer.

Surely they could just adjust ranged if/as necessary? I wouldn’t think that Summoner is significantly overpowered, more that it just has a more full and interesting toolkit whilst still having the same / almost the same mobility as ranged. Not that it isn’t very useful for lots of reasons, of course

And I can’t speak for anyone else, but I always figured that optimising support ability usage was the ‘positionals’ of ranged. Melee have to deal with disengaging the enemy to avoid aoes, healers have healing to consider, tanks have defense to consider, casters have cast times and MP usage to consider, then ranged has their support abilities to consider.

Like, Bard with cast times and MP usage, Machinists and Promotion / debuff timing, even Dancer with having to use GCDs on Steps and stuff like Technical Step / Improv usage. I think stuff like that really gives ranged something to have to consider, meaning that they can’t just run around spamming damage buttons and work less hard than every other job, which I’m sure nobody wants or is advocating. And I mean, I’m sure there are more ways to support the party than the OP Refresh/Tactician abilities.

I don’t think ranged needs more dps personally, think I’ve always argued that I think ranged was meant to be about something different than just ‘hit them hard’ (to the extent that a support oriented dps role can be different). Since every other role in the game also has to ‘hit them hard’, so naturally it doesn’t make sense for ranged to only have dps to consider when there’s nothing else for them to deal with.

I mean, I guess ranged could remain as the ‘easy mode mechanics’ job, but then as others have said I have to wonder how much of an advantage ranged mobility actually affords, since it’s not like casters can’t bypass movement requirements with instant casts, or melee have absolutely no ranged attacks or gap-closers to mitigate disengagement downtime. Not that I’m saying they don’t need to consider cast times / downtime because of these abilities, just that they aren’t exactly rooted to the spot for whole fights at a time.

I mean, the devs removed stuff like old Bard songs and Machinist’s promotion because ultimately they wanted ranged be more focused on ‘just damage’. But as everyone else has pointed out, there’s a good reason why ranged shouldn’t really be about pure damage, because they either can’t compete with melee/casters, or become so op that they outdo them completely.

Lastly this is naturally just my own opinion on the subject and I’m not suggesting that my view is the only one that should be allowed to exist. If they decide to keep ranged as pure dps then I’m not going to like, quit the game or be upset, I’d rather just play something more support oriented like Summoner/Red Mage/Astrologian. I just personally preferred the 2.0/3.0 focus on support for ranged

[EtherRose]

SNIP

Doesn't matter. SMN still has cast times. Also as i stated in a previous comment - Some other jobs/classes will always be better than others. Again, standard knowledge for every game. And there are a few factors for why.

1. MCH in terms of difficulty is basically very low. MCH is not hard to play.
2. SMN requires knowledge of rotations and difficulty is higher than MCH to upkeep damage.
3. Magic weapons have higher damage because casters have cast times.

And lastly....this is in tandem with why i said some other jobs/classes will be better than others. If we were to imply a little bit of "Game Logic" of jobs here, you're comparing a high-tier magic caster "Summoner" which shares a branch with "Scholar" to a job with a gun.

[Dfess]

That logic doesn't make that much sense, though, because by definition BLM would be a sustained dps. Yes, he hits like a truck, but in a sustained way. You do your rotation, you reach peak after your opener is set and then you plateau there till the end of the fight, while DNC would be opposite, since you have huge burst windows every 2 minutes.

While AoE rotation for ranged DPS is good, that shouldn't be a reason for their single target to be low in a game in which most endgame content (as in raids, trials and 24raids) are focused around killing or damaging one enemy at a time.
The reason why ranged DPS have lower damage output in general is because a ranged DPS is the only role that can consistently damage the enemy through mechanics for the entirety of the fight. Moving away from people because of tethers, constant don't-stop-walking mechanics and pushbacks are not an issue for ranged DPS, so it's much easier to optimize compared to melee that have positionals and some upkeep strategies to maintain, and casters that have cast bars, a mana pool, not as much mobility and prone to die easier if mechanics are not performed perfectly due to lower caster HP gear.

That's because BLM is sustained damage. Burst refers to brief windows where you dump everything on a target and your damage the decreases over time. You do high numbers at a particular point in an encounter but you cant keep it going. Sustained dps is what you described when talking about BLM. Having a consistent rotation that builds up and plateaus at a point in the encounter.

[dinnertime]

SMN is fine where it is now that the magical ranged role is balanced with BLM being mostly on top. No need to nerf one job because the entire physical ranged role is underperforming.