Feedback on Expert Recipes:

[Nandrolone]

For people not happy about rng involvement:

There is really no other way they can make this crafting system seem “difficult” without the use of randomness. It’s just impossible. Plus, as much as they annoy us with casual things and over accessibility, I have to give them credit. They listened to hardcore players and (attempted) to make recipes hard.

Next step would be expert recipes rewards, and improving them to encourage more people to do it. As well as seeing if there is a way to make even more of these hardcore players happy. Because we have to remember, expert recipes weren’t really designed for the average crafter.

[Kabooa]

Right. These recipes are actually fine and fun. The new conditions are enjoyable (unless you're one of those who prefer to ignore conditions). The rewards are crap though.

My recommendation then, for those who would like to see more of this, is to emphasize going along this path, improving it, and then adding desirable recipes to it.

The desirable recipes should ideally avoid being raw power increases, but as they've done with the ranking system, they gain more side bonuses that make them equally desirable to those buying and those selling.

For example

Master recipe: Crafted Chestpiece of Punching

Expert Recipe: Expert Chestpiece of Punching - Gains an Orange materia slot for every 30% HQ it breaks. Orange Materia slots function as Overmeld slots with higher/guaranteed meld rates. At 100%, gains a blue materia slot. Blue materia slots convey a 3d effect based on the color of materia inserted.

The Expert Recipe is not 'stronger' than the master recipe, but appeals to those buying as it reduces the cost of melding. It does not render the other option obsolete for budget purposes, and extra glamour potential is a desirable outcome.

[Plastics]

You can just make expert combat/crafting gear, you craft a collectable, there's 3 milestones, the first 2 just give you a bunch of gil and scrips to pay for the cost, the third gives you a token that can be traded to an NPC for an item with equivalent stats to HQ but with 2 extra extra materia slots. That means there's a benefit to doing expert level recipes, but it's not game breaking or anything. If you want to go crazy and get uber stats as a DoH/DoL you can craft those, there'll be items worth serious gil early in patches for people who want to meld 5 VIIIs to a piece, but they still leave a reason for Ornate gear to exist: 5 guaranteed VIII slots, even on pieces that have 1 base (3 expert).

I think that fits the niche quite nicely and should be easy for them to implement.

For people not happy about rng involvement:

There is really no other way they can make this crafting system seem “difficult” without the use of randomness. It’s just impossible. Plus, as much as they annoy us with casual things and over accessibility, I have to give them credit. They listened to hardcore players and (attempted) to make recipes hard.

Next step would be expert recipes rewards, and improving them to encourage more people to do it. As well as seeing if there is a way to make even more of these hardcore players happy. Because we have to remember, expert recipes weren’t really designed for the average crafter.

You can definitely remove the RNG element by making the statuses static per some time period and limiting steps. That way it's a lot more about strategy and using knowledge of crafting (as an expert should) and less getting lucky enough. You'd still be able to macro, but you'd have to build a new macro constantly, and there would be no sharing of macros if you make it so everyone has their own set of statuses.

[Dan4077]

I wouldn't call this RNG crafting. If you have a rigid rotation and is just ranting about how the random conditions don't fall into the right places of your rotation, then I don't think we're on the same page at all.


There are many differences between raids and crafting. In fact, the differences are way more than similarities. But the similarities do exist. In raids, you can't ignore mechanics. And similarly, in crafting, you're NOT supposed to ignore conditions. However, in raids, you can predict what mechanics is coming most of the times. In crafting, by contrast, you can't. And you have to work your rotations around it.

I do wonder if they should add something to the conditions so that there is a bit of predicting involved.


Well, we're talking about "normal" now. We've had this "norm" for way too long, and this "normal crafting" which is way too easy is boring as hell. And NO you cant PREDICT it just because you happen to not get a proc long enough and even IF you do WHAT ONE there is like 4 that you can get! You are trying to defend it saying well uh its not really rng but it also is rng but its not cause you can kinda predict it but you cant really predict it. Cmon lol


I am not sure what you mean since there's NO hard earned material and gil at all from all these raw mats for expert recipes. You can simply buy them off the MB at a ridiculously low price.



I mean, seriously? Who wants RL crafting here? Welcome to Final Fantasy, where fishes fly in air...


Right. These recipes are actually fine and fun. The new conditions are enjoyable (unless you're one of those who prefer to ignore conditions). The rewards are crap though.

The fact that you think it is not RNG is ridiculous. It is RNG all the way good excellent sturdy so on so on, Is RNG. What are you talking about lol. And apparently a lot of people want irl crafting cause because making an item based on if you get stupid procs is downright STUPID. Look at the prices barely anyone is touching this garbage and if it did have a high reward and the prices werent like 100 gil who would have the money to toss away on what you like to try to say is not RNG. If there is no rhyme or reason to something and its based on chance alone it is RNG lmao like where did you get this idea its NOT rng is just crazy.

Plus I dont have a rotation on it cause its impossible to have a rotation on random proc buffs, with an item almost 3x higher difficult rating then neo gear.

[Dan4077]

The idea of turning crafting into gambling is ridiculous, the entire point of crafting is making gil for the majority. Why in the world would I want to gamble it for chance. Procs are chance period, this is undeniable fact. You cannot "predict it" and even if you do guess what proc did you even get!? Now there is more then just 2 that makes it even more RNG. The only reason the items are worth NOTHING is because there is no reward and thank GOD for that. Cause if there was say an outfit or a mount locked behind it the prices would NOT be cheap. The rich would be buying them up and anyone with even a decent amount of gil would have to farm away to get a very small chance the they procs blessed them. I gone threw a decent amount of trial and error mainly works with skills we dont even use anymore. But even then you still need the right proc to pop up at the right time to really take advantage. Not to mention excellent condition seems prudent if not a complete necessity. That is tedious not fun.

[MilkAndChoco]

The fact that you think it is not RNG is ridiculous. It is RNG all the way good excellent sturdy so on so on, Is RNG. What are you talking about lol. And apparently a lot of people want irl crafting cause because making an item based on if you get stupid procs is downright STUPID. Look at the prices barely anyone is touching this garbage and if it did have a high reward and the prices werent like 100 gil who would have the money to toss away on what you like to try to say is not RNG. If there is no rhyme or reason to something and its based on chance alone it is RNG lmao like where did you get this idea its NOT rng is just crazy.

Plus I dont have a rotation on it cause its impossible to have a rotation on random proc buffs, with an item almost 3x higher difficult rating then neo gear.

wow salty much lol chill out

[smoodie]

The idea of turning crafting into gambling is ridiculous, the entire point of crafting is making gil for the majority. Why in the world would I want to gamble it for chance. Procs are chance period, this is undeniable fact. You cannot "predict it" and even if you do guess what proc did you even get!? Now there is more then just 2 that makes it even more RNG. The only reason the items are worth NOTHING is because there is no reward and thank GOD for that. Cause if there was say an outfit or a mount locked behind it the prices would NOT be cheap. The rich would be buying them up and anyone with even a decent amount of gil would have to farm away to get a very small chance the they procs blessed them. I gone threw a decent amount of trial and error mainly works with skills we dont even use anymore. But even then you still need the right proc to pop up at the right time to really take advantage. Not to mention excellent condition seems prudent if not a complete necessity. That is tedious not fun.

I’m generally a forum lurker, but yikes, your comment...

Comments like this are exactly why they keep changing the crafting system every expansion and never stick to one plan. Guess what, buddy? That’s how crafting used to always work. It was all totally rng up until 4.0. I didn’t mind 4.0 crafting but I know a lot of my hard core MLG crafter friends didn’t because of Prudent Touch action Lol. Anyways. You spent your gil, you started a craft, and just did your best to utilize your toolkit and hope rng didn’t scree you over. That’s how it always was. I admit it made me annoyed but it was an intriguing system nonetheless. The expert recipes are fine the way they are, and don’t need to be changed, it’s definitely better than master recipe’s poor difficulty spike.

If RNG is so “tedious” for you, then don’t craft it. Nobody is forcing you to do expert recipes, and if square chooses to listen to poor sport players like yourself, we will be repeating history all over again. People whining about players with a lot of Gil. People whining about rng because it inconveniences them. People whining about something that they don’t even need to do. I don’t mean to be rude. But I have to call this type of behavior out. This is exactly what led crafting to its demise in 5.0. Because of whiners. Just adapt to what’s given to you, and don’t whine. And for the record, who cares if a reward isn’t cheap. It’s not supposed to be if it’s a special reward. And by the way, “tedious” seems to be code around here for “it pisses me off and I don’t like it.”

Wow, and people say hardcore players are entitled. Ridiculous!

[Dan4077]

wow salty much lol chill out

.Its called criticism not salt. Just because you do not like something doesn't automatically equate to salt. That is a dumb response.

[Liam_Harper]

There is really no other way they can make this crafting system seem “difficult” without the use of randomness. It’s just impossible. Plus, as much as they annoy us with casual things and over accessibility, I have to give them credit. They listened to hardcore players and (attempted) to make recipes hard.

There's room for tweaks and improvement though. I think two culprits are the Centered Proc (still hefty rng) and how reliant you end up on the Pliant buff. Saving nearly 50 CP is massive. Centered could almost be buffed to 100%, though that's certainly up for discussion.
I also feel our toolkit is a little too small now, which lowers the potential for niche intelligent choices and pushes us towards a priority system, where certain abilities are just miles better.

It's a good system and a step in the right direction. The rewards are indeed awful though.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The fact that you think it is not RNG is ridiculous. It is RNG all the way good excellent sturdy so on so on, Is RNG. What are you talking about lol. And apparently a lot of people want irl crafting cause because making an item based on if you get stupid procs is downright STUPID. Look at the prices barely anyone is touching this garbage and if it did have a high reward and the prices werent like 100 gil who would have the money to toss away on what you like to try to say is not RNG. If there is no rhyme or reason to something and its based on chance alone it is RNG lmao like where did you get this idea its NOT rng is just crazy.

Plus I dont have a rotation on it cause its impossible to have a rotation on random proc buffs, with an item almost 3x higher difficult rating then neo gear.

I didn't say this is not RNG-involved. RNG is very much involved. Without RNG on conditions, you can't handle a "harder recipe", as you will have no means to HQ it once IQ11 Byregot fails you. But I don't think it's fair to call it "RNG crafting either", as it clearly differs from pressing a button, and it either succeeds or fails.

Think this way, if you have a recipe that goes 100% as long as you have the right rotation, then it's just a pure brainless boring grind. Here, with these recipes, you actually need to use your head a little. If you think this is all base on chance alone, then I think you will likely fail 9/10 times.

However, to be fair, after doing more of it, I do think it's a bit RNG-heavy... to the point that we're going back to the ARR Hasty Touching spam. So it was a little disappointing on that sense.

But all in all, we did get what we asked for, which are harder recipes, and they are not impossible to do either. To be fair and square, I have laid out my attempts so far on these Expert Recipes for everyone to analyze:

3943 (basically failed)
4161 (basically failed)
4912
botched!
5093
-----> upgraded gear... from using i430 mainhand, hat, gloves and boots to all i460 left gear and i470 mainhand.
5475
6486
999 (pre-mature completion mistake)
6022
6486 (max quality)
6339
5477
5472
6486 (max quality)
6322
6486 (max quality)
6335
6002
5653
3798 (failed)
6486 (max quality)
6018
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
5856
4281 (failed)
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6310
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6486 (maxed quality)
6220
6486 (maxed quality)

Firstly, I was using stupid i430 mainhand and some i430 gear, and I had 2/5 successes in my very early attempts when I was still not familiar with the new conditions. I think this is actually good. This means that the difficulty was high enough that it prompted me to upgrade my gear and to actually learn to utilize those conditions better.

Then, after upgrading my gear to i470 mainhand/offhand + all facet left gear, and after putting in more thoughts, I then have a pretty steady streak of either 5K+ or 6K+. Note that I'm not capable of maxing quality every single time. So I think the difficulty is fine-tuned to the right spot (despite we now have to go back to some nasty Hasty Touches).

Look at the prices barely anyone is touching this garbage and if it did have a high reward and the prices werent like 100 gil who would have the money to toss away on what you like to try to say is not RNG.

I never expected too many people to get this right. If everyone is jumping into Expert Recipe and doing it fine, then I will be the first one complaining about it. Sorry, I didn't sign up for Expert Recipes for gil. I'd rather be paying gil just to enjoy a good crafting game that picks on my brain a little. And btw, I'm actually glad that the mats are cheap like dirt on the marketboard. It saves me all the gathering time, and I can just focus on my crafting game.