The Failure of the ranged Physical balancing

[Kabooa]

while i agree ranged is underperforming, the 1% worth it so much that nobody gonna take double melee and caster ignoring ranger, its not only dps theres also LB and hp etc etc the 1% is bigger than you think.

It could stand to be bigger as an insurance tbh.

There's a post floating around one of these threads where I detail it further in a general context, but I can't be arsed to look for it now.

[SaitoHikari]

It could stand to be bigger as an insurance tbh.

There's a post floating around one of these threads where I detail it further in a general context, but I can't be arsed to look for it now.

This is the solution devs would most likely go with.

This is also a bad solution and even got shot down in the JP forums when the suggestion was floated around there months ago. Increasing role bonus by itself does nothing as it will be assumed all future content will be balanced around its existence, and pug parties would be screwed over in the long term if they cannot find the necessary roles.

[Akiudo]

while i agree ranged is underperforming, the 1% worth it so much that nobody gonna take double melee and caster ignoring ranger, its not only dps theres also LB and hp etc etc the 1% is bigger than you think.

without wanting to shoot down your optimism i believe that the 1% is indeed bigger than many people think, however on the other hand i also believe that even with that its still barely enough right now. if you look at pure dps you could allready easily replace all physical ranged and come out ahead dps wise, e6s notwithstanding, while there may still be some shift do to gear funnelling, even at the 50% ramuh percentile which is what should shift the least at this point you basically barely break even for taking a physical ranged instead of blm/smn+double melee.

like yes, you would be better of with taking a physical ranged, but lets all for a moment think what this 1% buff really is, the idea is that no matter what, you will want at least one of every role.
yet in the case of physical ranged the 1% buff allready has them at the point of "... well, with it we'll do the same amount of damage... and hey we'll have 1% more hp, also our parse will look nicer..." Basically the "strong and clear encouragement" it offers for other roles gets marginilized down to "oh well, at least our parse looks nicer" in the case of physical ranged, thats how bad it is

[Kabooa]

This is the solution devs would most likely go with.

This is also a bad solution and even got shot down in the JP forums when the suggestion was floated around there months ago. Increasing role bonus by itself does nothing as it will be assumed all future content will be balanced around its existence, and pug parties would be screwed over in the long term if they cannot find the necessary roles.

I prefer to think of it more as a layer of protection. It should not be the only fix in the pipe, but it does protect against future design discrepancies.

If, in Garlemald-Goers, the melee all end up 15% below the mark because of whatever reason, a full house bonus of 8% vs 5% keeps at least one in the party.

Building in corrective measures is more useful to pugs than to statics, as pugs often require all the corrective advantages while a high end static does not.

[Satarn]

The problem with the role bonus is not that it's too small - it could be 10% extra for having all roles and it would still feel shitty for phys ranged, because they're still not taken for their own role's merits, but just to "complete the set".

SE clearly thinks that for whatever reason - be it difficulty, mobility, it does not matter - phys ranged should not provide as much rDPS as the other roles - and frankly this is fine. However if that's to continue, then phys ranged need some other unique strength to have a value in the party - just like tanks and healers do. Actual, non-damage support would be perfect for that, as many people have suggested and it's kind of baffling that BRD and MCH used to have way more of it back when they also did more damage. Said utility should be reflected both in role skills and individual job actions - including MCH, as it being "pure dps" is asinine if entire phys ranged is meant to be "low dps". Tactician, Troubadour and Shield Samba should also be diversified somehow, even if it means just changing one into a barrier and one into HP-up, while third remains mitigation.

[deadman1204]

IS it like the same 5 people making EVERY thread about how MCH and BRD should outdamage others because they're snowflakes?

[CKNovel]

IS it like the same 5 people making EVERY thread about how MCH and BRD should outdamage others because they're snowflakes?

Are you part of the 5 people not understanding what ranged DPS ask?
You just looked at the title and did not read anything.

Here:
-The gap should exist but it is currently too wide.
-Ranged DPS utility is non-existent compared to all the mitigation that used to exist during SB (Palisade&Dismantle for example)
-Many casters at top level acknowledge that mobility is not as big as everyone think especially looking at RDM/SMN with their GCDs 40-50% casted while they also bring massive utilities during progress.
-A lot of ranged would welcome back Bowmage/Gunmage just to have our efforts rewarded as the casters.
-The only reason you need a ranged DPS is because of the 1% bonus stat. Ranged don't have an identity beyond ranged DPS with no cast.

We don't ask much from SE and we don't ask much from the community to understand.
If you could at least read a bit about the Ranged DPS complains rather than limiting yourself to the title, that would help a lot.

[Ramura_Sono]

Are you part of the 5 people not understanding what ranged DPS ask?
You just looked at the title and did not read anything.

Here:
-The gap should exist but it is currently too wide.

They're currently what? 1k dps behind their respective caster/melee? Could probably cut the difference in half and it would be fine. Any closer than that and they'd start locking out other jobs.

-Ranged DPS utility is non-existent compared to all the mitigation that used to exist during SB

Isn't that literally just Palisade? Bring back Palisade. Everything else can stay gone.

-A lot of ranged would welcome back Bowmage/Gunmage just to have our efforts rewarded as the casters.

Then they should just play casters. Those that would welcome back bowmage/gunmage are a minority. Maybe at best you could bring back gunmage but bowmage would absolutely be hated.

-The only reason you need a ranged DPS is because of the 1% bonus stat. Ranged don't have an identity beyond ranged DPS with no cast.

You can reduce every role to such a singular identity though. "Melee have no identity beyond having to be in melee range" "casters have no identity other than having cast times".

We don't ask much from SE and we don't ask much from the community to understand.
If you could at least read a bit about the Ranged DPS complains rather than limiting yourself to the title, that would help a lot.

But reading is hard!

[MPNZ]

IS it like the same 5 people making EVERY thread about how MCH and BRD should outdamage others because they're snowflakes?

Mobility is such a joke outside of the zones, and buffing isn't something that requires much effort and lacks a lot of impact and feeling of importance in cases. If any player plays a buff class w/o understanding and seeing and showcasing the impact and others noticing the same: then it's not really worthwhile to keep in it's design (Ex: dnc has it the worst, imo, especially when leveling, but it is very active and spr fun). Most ranged physical have a feeling of emptiness until the last three levels, imo

...

The stripping of jobs every expansion just kills them. Forcing jobs to be fun only at the last ten or three level really makes me want to just scream every expac, and physrnged cast bars on BRD interfered with it's entire kit and was majorly jarring to experience when going from the lower level dungeons to ravana when compared to MCH which was felt really natural. The one percent should ideally be a plus, but it's basically like the only thing really valuable that the role brings as opposed to what each job brings, and I really agree that it should go. It literally screams that they don't have the time to properly design each jobs unique systems well per expansion, and just gave up

...

Bole was an effective DMG reduction buff that is literally considered useless, when compared to direct dmg due to over reliance on DPS checks, which make priorities shift to Damage being first, second, and third in terms of priority in the playerbase's mindset. So' it's most likely, just based on the extreme "DMG first" mentality, that like the Physrng role is only seen for that one percent buff. But, ranged also has a bigger problem of being seen as a "filthy casuals" role. Despite RDM & BLM being just as simple and easy (Brd, RDM, and AST are way flashier and quicker to respond to situations, IMO)

[Akiudo]

They're currently what? 1k dps behind their respective caster/melee? Could probably cut the difference in half and it would be fine. Any closer than that and they'd start locking out other jobs.

you make this sound as if "cutting this difference in half" is nothing, we're talking 500 dps right here, thats a shitton if you look at how other classes react if you so much as imply they should be nerfed for 100-200 dps.

Isn't that literally just Palisade? Bring back Palisade. Everything else can stay gone.

no its not, first and foremost there was refresh, which right now indeed wouldn't matter, but thats because mana regen was buffed by a lot after refreshs removal, refresh with the old mana regen/costs of classes was HUGE, just because it would be worthless currently doesn't mean it wasn't something big they lost, in mch case there also was dismantle.

Then they should just play casters. Those that would welcome back bowmage/gunmage are a minority. Maybe at best you could bring back gunmage but bowmage would absolutely be hated.

and you base these insight on ? i would welcome bowmage just as much as i would welcome gunmage, it would however need to be designed around it instead of just being slapped on, thats the thing, bowmage was despised because it simply did not work, it flowed like shit because bard wasn't designed around cast times and than they simply slapped then on when mch came around and called it a day.

You can reduce every role to such a singular identity though. "Melee have no identity beyond having to be in melee range" "casters have no identity other than having cast times".

if you want to nitpick the word identity go ahead, still doesn't change that for what they offer to the group, i.e. the VALUE they offer you as a party if you decide to take one with you is "caster with shitty damage" you as a group don't really gain anything you wouldn't gain while taking another caster.

But reading is hard!

case in point.