Ranged DPS, choose a weakness that would justify a buff

[CKNovel]

Disclaimer:Let's clarify that the current DPS is balanced enough for the current content. E8S clear with double ranged (DNC/BRD) actually happened, sadly there is no clear with those two jobs before March 6 according to FFLogs. Yes, you can clear any content with BRD and DNC but it'll be ironically harder.

Hello fellow MCH/DNC/BRD,

As the title say, choose a weakness that would justify a buff, your imagination is the limit.
As the community claims, Mobility is so good that it allows us to DPS without worry and bring out the big numbers. Which never happened, Mobility has been a fake advantage and this tier proved it.
However it remains a truth that ranged jobs lacks complexity making them the DPS with the smallest variations when it comes to lower and upper percentiles.

So this is why I thought this thread could be usefull and would love to hear what you would consider a good weakness that could justify a buff.

[KDSilver]

MCH tactician is barely better than feint or addle. It covers all type of damage, but you don't need both.
They took a good route by giving MCH a more defensive oriented style in SB with the old skill. I don't know why he lost that.

[Lastelli]

The only reasonable weakness would be introducing some constraint to their mobility. I'll just copy-paste the suggestion I made in the other thread.

BRD:
1) Chance to grant repertoire is increased by 10% if the distance from the boss is greater than 10y. Chance is further increased by another 10% if the player hasn't moved for more than 3 seconds (give a visual cue to understand if the conditions are met). The idea here is to make BRD a ranged heavy machine gun during WM and to slightly increase the value of AP, that would become the "move as you like" phase since repertoire are useless after the 4th proc. Ballad would be pretty much the same since it already procs so much. Finally, this would result in more soul voice generation overall;
2) Bring back foe requiem as it was in StB. Once activated, it cannot be deactivated. Effect fades when MP reaches 0. Effect fades when player moves and resumes when player stops moving. Max duration with full MP = 15 seconds.

MCH:
1) Hypercharge: each subsequent heat blast gains 40 potency if no movement was made from the previous one. Turns the 5th heat blast into cannon blast (800 potency) if no movement at all was made for the whole duration of hypercharge. This is to force MCH to use the flexibility they have in their rotation to chose the best time to use Hypercharge (when they can afford to stay still for 7-8 whole seconds);

DNC:
1) +100 potency to standard finish when executed far from the boss (>8y) and the player didn't move between step actions;
2) +100 potency to tech. finish when executed at melee range and the player didn't move between step actions;
3) rework improvisation: grants 15 esprit for every party member within 5y up to a max of 60. CD lowered to 30 seconds.
The idea here is to make DNC frequently switch between melee and long range to maximize damage. The 3rd suggestion is to make the cap skill actually useful while incentivizing the rest of the party to work with the DNC (the max value is there to make sure it's not too hard to make full use of the skill, so that staying at melee range with 2 melees and 2 tanks close will give you max esprit).

These are just random ideas that don't change the current rotations and give ranged jobs something to work on to increase their damage. Numbers should be tweaked to make the rDPS of the 3 ranged jobs more or less equivalent and 2-3% lower than melees/casters in a fully optimized scenario.

MCH tactician is barely better than feint or addle. It covers all type of damage, but you don't need both.
They took a good route by giving MCH a more defensive oriented style in SB with the old skill. I don't know why he lost that.

The true strenght of tactitian/troubadour/samba lies in the fact that you don't need a target, which makes it a strong defensive tools in situations where the damage doesn't come directly from the boss.

[CKNovel]

Snip -

2) Bring back foe requiem as it was in StB. Once activated, it cannot be deactivated. Effect fades when MP reaches 0. Effect fades when player moves and resumes when player stops moving. Max duration with full MP = 15 seconds.

MCH:
1) Hypercharge: each subsequent heat blast gains 40 potency if no movement was made from the previous one. Turns the 5th heat blast into cannon blast (800 potency) if no movement at all was made for the whole duration of hypercharge. This is to force MCH to use the flexibility they have in their rotation to chose the best time to use Hypercharge (when they can afford to stay still for 7-8 whole seconds);

- Snip

I should not answer but I really can't pass this:
You are trying to build a new Flamethrower, but worse.
Flamethrower was a nerf to MCH as the job needed to use a whole new opener for UCOB as the Twister would come out right when Flamethrower was building heat and that was only 5 seconds of not moving.
No job is required to not move for more than 4 seconds, not even Ninja, and you are trying to lock the job in place for 8 seconds. Sadly, this is a really bad design especially when MCH needs more lag recognition. Same for BRD and the requiem.
If those changes would actually happen, ranged would need to be much higher than a BLM as a BLM is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more mobile than your ideas.

Overrall the idea of specific range is not that bad on paper.
But it would be horrible to play and here's a little list why:

-No one actually knows a precise yalm, DRG/RDM players knows their backjump range but that's it and remind yourself that many falls. You need a clear feedback if you are at the correct range and a way to know where that range is. Imagine if ranged players starts to ask for a marker for their respective range.
-Damages, procs and position would be heavily influenced by lags. Anatman, remember?
-Healing. I'm going to let you imagine a scenario where the BRD/DNC would stand out of a Cure 3 or AST Star because of DPS. There's already uptime strats for Melees so why not uptime strat for Ranged? Healers adjusts.

The don't move idea, it's not bad but it's simply never going to work in FF XIV (Especially with numbers so high when at most, a caster is not moving for 2 seconds) unless it is triggered like a stance. And we already have "Don't move" mechanics to prove that, if you stop moving right before the GCD, the server won't take it in account.
Think about Ten Chi Jin, Flamethrower, AST Bubble, PLD Wings.

On the contrary, I would have proposed ranged required to be at melee range, we had that with blank in HW and no I don't think many complained about it. Except when it was used on a non-boss.
Add cooldowns at Melee range and voila, mobility is reduced and if you are too far, the feedback is clear.

[Lastelli]

No job is required to not move for more than 4 seconds, not even Ninja, and you are trying to lock the job in place for 8 seconds. Sadly, this is a really bad design especially when MCH needs more lag recognition. Same for BRD and the requiem.
If those changes would actually happen, ranged would need to be much higher than a BLM as a BLM is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more mobile than your ideas.

And this is why I can't take you "make ranged great again" crowd seriously. Hypercharge is active for approximately 20% of an encounter and this alone should make you realize how big the difference is between this hypothetical version of MCH and the current BLM in terms of freedom of movement (unless you want to argue that blm is cast-free 80% of the time). Furthermore, it can be used flexibly outside of wildfire windows. The longest you'd have to stay still is 7.5 seconds, which is more or less equal to 3 hardcasted fire 4. If you know a mechanic will force you to move, you'll delay it, as the current nature of MCH allows that. In fact, I'm already doing it most of the times for some reasons I'm not going to explain here. If you think that my proposed solution is too unforgiving and the punishment for moving while using HC is too severe, numbers can be lowered a little so that if you screw up you don't lose too much damage, though I personally like the idea of MCH as a high-risk, high-reward job. By the way, these are rough suggestions that can be easily adapted to make them easier to execute in practice. For instance, in the case of HC, lack of movement can be changed with a "grace area" with a radius of 2y, like a small ley lines, and if you stand there your heat blasts do more damage.

The yalm requirement was made especially forgiving so that it would be easy to achieve without having to place a ruler on your monitor. Just know that max range is 25y, so 10y is less than half of that, and small enough to be able to receive all aoe heals in the game, with the only exeption of cure iii...in which case, again, you'd just have to pay a very small price, go stack with the party, and then go back to the required range. What I suggested is absolutely doable in a savage/ultimate scenario with some planning. All of it. The only possible problem I see is, in fact, with foe requiem, because the game's net code sucks, but even if it took 2 seconds for the debuff to be reapplied it wouldn't be a big deal.

To conclude, do note when these requirements are not satisfied, the job would still be doing damage. These changes would just give something more for those that want to work for them, unlike a BLM or a RDM that has to cancel a cast to avoid a mechanic or a melee that needs to disengage. For them, damage is zero in those cases.

[Akiudo]

snip

at least your bard idea would in fact make bard way less mobile than even blackmage (if going for optimized damage), while at the same time forcing bard so far away it will basically never again see an aoe heal, yes you put up the whole "just quick ideas" disclaimer, but reading about the one class i actively do play i get the feeling your experience on bard boils down to "i like mch"

[Vendalwind]

And this is why I can't take you "make ranged great again" crowd seriously...

this.

SOOOO much this. I mena you start a thread where you specifically ask for WEAKNESSES and then your like 'Nah that weakness sucks'
Until 5.1 NIN was stuck in TCJ for 6 seconds on average. ping dependent. And yeah. as Lastelli said no single move of BLM requires 7 seconds. But a chain of moves does. and BLM need to chain such moves without moving for max potential output. The suggested MCH change would work much the same.

Also Yalms are actually pretty easy to gauge, and like any other skill its a practice and learning thing. Thats one you could easily test out with a striking dummy too. if you wanted to make it simpler you could make a rule about only getting the damage bonus outside of melee range, but i feel like that would be too easy

That said as Kabooa noted we need to reward ranged for something special for their class more than anything else, and movement restrictions really probably aren't the best way.
I really do think that range restrictions are, or at the very least like discussed bonuses, are the best choice.

Melee are generally rewarded for positional s. Do you need to do positional s? no. So on occasion you give them up for mechanics. Melee also need to stay in range. Do we always get to? no, and every time we are forced out we have to adapt and change our rotations and alignments.
Casters are supposed to not move. Do they always get to? Absolutely not haha. They have some utility type skills to mitigate the losses of doing so, but they are still losses regardless
Ranged could be very easily be given restrictions within the boss hitbox as a downside (can't use certain moves while standing in the bosses circle) standard dmg outside of the circle, and for being 5 yalms+ away a bonus to damage on their basic moves. This would increase the skill gap, and could easily be designed to be a bigger buff than a nerf to the classes.

I do gotta say tho, that going further for class specific boosts sounds nicer and more doable. MCH for example definately can validate non movement or other restrictions with the need to actually , ya know, build machines. but the general range restriction/bonus would be the most simple and well devised thing i can think of.

[Kabooa]

The only reasonable weakness would be introducing some constraint to their mobility. I'll just copy-paste the suggestion I made in the other thread.

I don't necessarily agree the constraint has to be the removal of using mobility. If anything, the use of the mobility should be encouraged.

Think of it this way.

A Caster is -rewarded- for doing better. In terms of being a Caster, this generally boils down to minimizing movement during the best uptime phases, and abusing what they can during very long movement phases. That's their unique goal.

Ranged are currently not. If we consider the idea that they are currently lacking their ability to push farther due to a lack of real constraints, then our aim shouldn't be to uplift them and then shackle them, it should be to uplift them by them taking advantage of having no shackles.

We create a unique goal for them that utilizes their kit advantages, that by its nature extends their skillcap in each encounter.

On a simpler note - whether that currently justifies the deficit is up for debate, and a 2-4% upward adjustment based on the job is likely fine.

[HyperiusUltima]

I agree with this line of thought, and want to expand on it further in discussion. Think about it! As Kabooa said, Casters rewarded more DPS for doing better is what encourages that reasonable skill gap. As for Ranged, we merely only go into lockstep with the encounter and press buttons without much variance outside of the occasional overcap on DNC/MCH/BRD. We need a reward system for Ranged that makes sense.

The current reward system for Ranged is pretty paper thin which is different for each job:

DNC - Standard and Technical execution. These two skills comprise what DNC is in general, along with its proc-based damage output. How a person uses their utilities on this job determines the job's performance with the party; on top of that, they are the only job that's heavily reliant on the party as a whole given their rDPS is the main selling point and their Partner mechanic for Esprit.

BRD: Raging Strikes, Snapshotting, and DoT upkeep. The snapshot mechanic is still what BRD is heavily focused on, since they want to stretch out as much effects from buffs as they possibly can. Their DoT upkeep is a major part of their DPS given that they're also reliant on procs for Minuet and Ballad. It's hard to pinpoint how their reward system can be used given they have a niche ability that can cleanse debuffs but majority of the time it revolves around snapshotting buffs, meaning they are also reliant on the party for exploitation of buffs.

MCH: Burst Damage. MCH, being made a 3rd time in Shadowbringers, now feels like it's heavily lacking in reward. The problem with this is that they used to have a reward system in the form of Wildfire being exploited for huge burst damage before they made it GCD-reliant. Now, it's merely just lining up your CDs and Wildfire with party buffs. The only utility it has is the generalized 10% DR that all Ranged have, which isn't enough to justify it lacking a proper reward system even with Queen.

So, how can we reform this?

DNC: Can be left as is, but needs consistency for Esprit Gains and Improvisation being a static number, not dependent on party.

BRD: Somehow find a way to detach the heavy reliance on raid buffs for BRD, and give them something to build towards. Apex Arrow is a mockery given how it has such low damage early on; I'd rather it were an actual oGCD that does not have a gauge. A potential fix - Apex Arrow Potency: 800, 90s CD. Deals damage in a line in front of you.

Maybe find a way to tie Apex Arrow CD usage to Song efficiency to compete with DNC.

MCH: In desperate need of something that isn't Queen. I've been reconsidering Ammo, but unsure what they could do to reform MCH.

[Kabooa]

So, how can we reform this?

DNC: Can be left as is, but needs consistency for Esprit Gains and Improvisation being a static number, not dependent on party.

BRD: Somehow find a way to detach the heavy reliance on raid buffs for BRD, and give them something to build towards. Apex Arrow is a mockery given how it has such low damage early on; I'd rather it were an actual oGCD that does not have a gauge. A potential fix - Apex Arrow Potency: 800, 90s CD. Deals damage in a line in front of you.

Maybe find a way to tie Apex Arrow CD usage to Song efficiency to compete with DNC.

MCH: In desperate need of something that isn't Queen. I've been reconsidering Ammo, but unsure what they could do to reform MCH.

Dancer: Keep the espirit generation as is, but add another layer. Every X seconds, a dancer visible only pick up forms near you or your dance partner at some distance away within the area / arena. This pick up grants a static amount of Espirit. You can have a maximum amount active, allowing both improved generation and the ability to stockpile them for burst phases. The act of picking them up is the dancer flitting about the field, but in a controlled manner.

Bard: Rather than a stand alone OGCD, how would you feel about it being tied to Songs?

Apex Arrow
[Ability or GCD]
Effect: Ends the current song, dealing X potency in a line. Deals Greater Potency with less song duration. Reduces cooldown of other Songs based on duration remaining.

We'd also change Songs to not require a target (Just combat, to avoid prepull shenanigans that they've been trying to get rid of). Fold the potency into Apex Arrow.

Rather than being a rather rote song rotation, Apex Arrow lets you adjust it a bit more. On long transition phases, you can use the least valuable song available to you, tick it down, and open with a fully powered Apex Arrow.

Machinist: I not really in the camp that I think anything is outright wrong with it, other than a few action changes (Flamethrower). Plus I've read mixed sentiments when it came to Wildfire and robot. So I'mma spitball this one, taking a more refined version of what I suggested in the other thread.

Air Anchor
Weaponskill
Recast: 40
Fires heavy chains at the target.
Point Blank [0-5]: 700 potency and 20 Battery.
Mid Range [6-15]: 930 Potency and 10 Battery.
Long Range [16-Max]: [X] Hits of [Y] Potency. (Totals 1160)

Every 10 Battery is worth 230 Potency (1 Robot Attack of 150+ 80 to the final hit). This effectively makes the ability equal at all ranges, however, as you might notice, they suddenly have very clear cases of extra gain.

A 930 Hit is a better Reassemble target than Drill. A multiple hit weaponskill is a better GCD to fit into Wildfire. The robot is never bad, and this doesn't change Machinists's default.

This is the same idea of priority conflict I've suggested in the Monk for Chakra and Greased Lightning. Air Anchor's value fluctuates (and where you need to use it from flucutates) based on the status of your other cooldowns.

How does that sound?