Thread: (5.2 spoilers) The Defector

Originally Posted by Kusanagi7

im convinced we are the defector the thing im curious about is why we are team hydaelyn when it was stated we were on no team.

I think the WoL has personality traits that:

1. Doesn't want people to sacrifice themselves not want anyone to consign themselves to death.
2. Will always want to look for another option. As it stands storywise now is that the Ancients either die or get killed off, or they kill off new life for their own good. I feel we're the kind of person that would want both around to exist.

We never went around trying to make sure Dragons went extinct during the Dragonsong War. We tried to help with a middle ground.
We didn't try to eliminate everyone involved with Ala Mhigo and Doma we also tried to go for a middle ground.

I think we're always going to eliminate those that oppress others agency of choice, but we will side with keeping others alive as much as possible. I don't think we'd have taken her side as it presents an "us or them" choice but we will preserve the life we have and not let others remove their agency.

I think to us, all life new and old deserved the right to exist. The threat lied with the ones that became tempered and only thought their view was the only view but at the same time not entertaining options for the rest of Ancients caught in the middle and only framing it as an "us or them" choice I don't feel is exactly right either. The WoL will protect people's right to live amongst each other.

Another edit: Thought this was a good spot to bring back this discussion - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...the-Lifestream

One more edit.

I think this move of making us neutral was an EXTREMELY wise decision on the devs part since this is a teen game. Granted I do enjoy grey zones but I think there is a bit of a problem putting your hero as the person that may have essentially killed and torn apart families to protect the new life. Let's not forget it was a whole planet this was done to - that included the fate of the Ancients who still had families and children. It may have been for the "greater good" but that's still a pretty horrible act.

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I think this move of making us neutral was an EXTREMELY wise decision on the devs part since this is a teen game. Granted I do enjoy grey zones but I think there is a bit of a problem putting your hero as the person that may have essentially killed and torn apart families to protect the new life. Let's not forget it was a whole planet this was done to - that included the fate of the Ancients who still had families and children. It may have been for the "greater good" but that's still a pretty horrible act.

I agree with your points about certain character aspects but I disagree with us being neutral. Of course the WoL tries to find a solution that brings peace to both sides but we also have chosen sides more than once. In Heavensward we did try to bring peace and thankfully some dragons listen and the people of Ishgard wanted to change but we were still on the side of Ishgard. If Hraesvlgr decided not to help us or even attack us I am sure we would have done everything to protect Ishgard and thus kill a lot of dragons. With Doma and Ala Mhigo we may not kill Garlean soldiers that give up but we still choose to be against them, there was no middle ground in that conflict. We were 100% not neutral.

On the first we may have tried to reason with Emet Selch but we always stood with Humanity. Being neutral for me means that we simply dont take part in the conflict at all. Like Sharlayan likes to do. But we do take sides even if we do try to find a solution with the least amount of bloodshet.

Right now there seemingly was no solution that would have brought peace between the two ancient faction. One side is tempered and planned a huge genocide and the other side planned to imprison Zodiark because his existance would still end in a calamity. Being neutral in that situation sounds to me more like: Well I dont want any hand in this please fight this out alone. Seemingly we had no plan because Hydealyn won..or maybe our plan was the splitting (since sundering was not mentioned in that group talk) but if we had no plan then staying neutral just sounds bad to me. If you dont have a third road then there is a time where you have to take a side. If we had stayed neutral in the fight between Ala Mhigo and Garlemald (since we are an outsider) then we would not have fought for Raubahn and his people. We would have gone on and maybe fight some Ascians but 100% not fought for Ala Mhigo. The same with Doma.

About the teen game part: I mean the sundering did not kill people. The ancients were still there just split up, in that way families probably did stick together and we dont know for sure if they truly lost their memories or if that came later. Emet demonstrates this by simply showing two Rynes. There was no mention of death for that. (And the only ones left were the Amaurotines) Lets not forget that we just killed the "sahagin" queen in this very patch, including her unborn children. We took a side and decided to end it because of the slaughter of innocent people they could bring. We were not neutral at all. This game is far away from not tearing families apart. Its the sad truth of war that each side will have family that they want to protect.

Originally Posted by Alleo

About the teen game part: I mean the sundering did not kill people. The ancients were still there just split up, in that way families probably did stick together and we dont know for sure if they truly lost their memories or if that came later. Emet demonstrates this by simply showing two Rynes. There was no mention of death for that. (And the only ones left were the Amaurotines) Lets not forget that we just killed the "sahagin" queen in this very patch, including her unborn children. We took a side and decided to end it because of the slaughter of innocent people they could bring. We were not neutral at all. This game is far away from not tearing families apart. Its the sad truth of war that each side will have family that they want to protect.

"Sundering is not killing" Is the same kind of thinking that "rape isn't as bad as murder" or how the law has been enacted in the US regarding immigration.

Or we can think environmentally: If science came up with definitive evidence that the reason our earth is in danger is because we're living past our "expected time" at a certain age. You honestly think it's noble to decide on behalf of the world to "cut people off at that time" ...it's okay because we'll be reincarnated? If I told you and others we need to stop using our PCs because it's part of the carbon footprint destroying our environment so we should stop playing FFXIV and debating on the forums - that you'll just do it? Of course not, and we'd condemn anyone in society that enforces that - even if it's for the greater good.

The WoL would look for better ways for people to continue their existence not remove them from it.

Like I said, I get it it seems rather noble since eventually life can go on in the game - but this decision was bigger than Amaurot. It affected EVERYONE living at that time, Ancients and new beings.

As far as memories go. There's evidence that did point to our memories being wiped during the act. I do think she had reason to - to keep certain groups from easily just returning to Zodiark. Evidence being Elidibus' speech about about our memories being wiped. If you want to discount him as being a liar. We do have Hydaelyn herself reshaping history. Hydaelyn could have been straight forward with us but she wasn't.

(and yes btw I know we have the cave paintings but it was from someone's recollection presumably with echo?)

Neutral in this case doesn't mean "not killing at all" nor did I make that argument. I merely talked about "us vs them" New vs Old, and simply killing for that cause. In each scenario where 2 sides were about - the characteristics of the WoL was to find another way. Yet we still do not hesitate to eliminate threats to people's lives. The WHOLE reason we are on the First now is because of that character trait. Urianger was inspired by our trait of finding another solution and used that to ask Minfilia Hydaelyn to help stop the flood on the First. Hydaelyn did not take that initiative, Urianger made a case and she accepted.

Obviously the WoL doesn't always succeed. Seeing how Urianger mentioned the very trait we've seen repeated in various themes and Xpacs I think that trait always sticks with us.

Venat herself wanted to keep the darkness in check. However, if she completely eliminated Zodiark or is eliminated herself it does nothing for the problem. That's why it falls to the MC to find a third way.